When using Templates. . . .

[Ronkirn]

Recently, I have received a lot of emails from guys making Tele bodies with mine and other templates, generally complaining. . ..

So for those not aware, consider, when dropping below about 1/8 inch tolerance there are no two vintage Fender guitars exactly the same. This is because of several factors that creep into production as the bodies and necks are being made.

The final step prior to the paint going on is sanding. Back then as now, that’s pretty much a hand operation, even on pretty inexpensive guitars, thus if you have a 300 pound worker pressing a body against a power sander, he’s going to apply more pressure than a 98 pounder, result, more wood is removed yielding a body slightly smaller than the 98 pounder’s work.

Also, as wood is shaped by power tools, the bits are dulled, when those tools are resharpened, the size is altered, making them slightly smaller in diameter. Today the CNC machines use sensors to detect that variation and compensate for the change, so consistency is preserved, but back in the days when the bodies we are really interested in were produced, they were done with pin routers and templates. So a now slightly smaller bit, would produce a slightly tighter neck pocket or larger body and/or neck. This is why during the CBS years such innovations as much larger neck pockets were introduced.

That covers the primary reasons for variations in the original manufacturing, but you may ask what does that have to do with any thing?

Such inconsistencies are common today, particularly from smaller operations where very expensive computer controlled machinery is used which could eliminate such variations. But even considering that, there is no way Warmoth’s 2 3/16 could be exactly the same as USAGC’s, Allparts, WD’s, and on and on….

This is further compounded by the fact that no two rulers in your shop are the same. It’s common knowledge among quality wood workers that you use the same measuring device for all critical cuts when building something of quality.

If you make your own templates, buy mine, or use anyone else, all kind of variances come into play, but the one I get most often is, “The neck don’t fit”.

Check these photos….








As you can see, there is considerable variation, factor in the additional dimension the lacquer applied to the edges of the neck and inside the neck pocket would contribute and you see there is NO standard.

Another consideration is the radius at the heel of the neck, some are cut at a ¼ inch radius, requiring a ½ inch diameter bit to cut the neck pocket, and others use a 3/16th radius requiring a 3/8 inch diameter bit to cut the pocket. Therefore on the templates I have added a slight modification to the neck pocket to allow for either. This is seen as the slightly over rounded corners in the neck pocket. I did it to allow for the gripes.

Also, and I cannot believe I still get gripes about this…. The neck is 1 5/8 at the nut and 2 3/16 at the heel thus it is tapered, so accordingly, the neck pocket sides are NOT parallel, they are tapered too.

Finally, considering the variations from one body to the next (check Nacho’s book as to specifications relative to different vintage Blackguards), those of you predisposed to go over any template with Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, or Mitutoyo tools are going to be disappointed. So all y’all anal retentive types beware….

Ron Kirn

[Slow Reflexes]

Hehee... I wouldn't have thought you'd get so many gripes about neck pockets! People are strange.

[jwells393]

Ron ....... I think your gripers and conplainers should worry more about their spray painting technique and maybe spend more time practicing their playing.

[Tom S]

Ron, it's pretty amazing that you have to post this at all. I guess there are a lot of people who probably shouldn't be building guitars in the first place.

It seems that a lot of folks read all these build threads and think it's a simple matter to make a body and have everything turn out perfectly....with no forethought or serious planning beforehand. Just follow the template! The problem may be that many of them don't have any previous woodworking experience, so they don't realize that no matter what you're building, you are bound to run into little issues that need finesse. These things can often be foreseen and accommodated for in the building process. But you have to see them coming.

Honestly, though, if you can't make any neck fit the guitar body you are making yourself, then you should probably concentrate more on birdhouses.

The guys who are expecting perfect vintage specs, when they don't even exist, are beyond my comprehension.

[mellecaster]

Another "Common sense" Post by Mr. Kirn ...I Love em !!!

[MulliganChebichev]

Thanks, now it makes more sense why my Mighty Mite neck was a tad bit thicker then the neck pocket allowed.

Now wait, you'll see neck pocket templates for WD, Warmoth, USACG, and AllParts necks.

[tdowns]

Good post Ron. Heck, I recently put together a finished body and neck from the same company and the neck didn't fit. Sloppy finishes around the neck pocket seem to be the culprit in many cases. I didn't think about the fit problem not being common knowledge. I just expect it, and deal with it. I carefully use the Dremel 407 sanding drum inside the neck pocket.

[Ronkirn]

I hope no body takes me wrong, I do love helping… but I gotta re-emphasize, puleeze consider your personal skill level and/or demeanor before you leap. And anal types got no business making a guitar unless they have access to the tools Ed has…. Gawd… I’m so jealous…

If you search the many previous threads on building you will see, I hammer safety. Even the smaller “home duty” tools can get ya a ride with an EMT squirtin’ your body full ‘o stuff to stop the bleeding. So think…. A well chopped finger can easily cost ya what a Warmoth body and neck costs to get sewn up.

I get some questions so lame; it gives me the willies just to think of the person in front of a spinning saw blade. I try to be polite, but then they get offended when I suggest they find a friend that is familiar with the various methods of removing splinters from the fingers, and what the loud noise, Brrrrrraaaaaaaaaapppp buhhh buh buuuu puh puh…..is coming from a chain saw.

Killers like, “ Yo, there ain’t no center line.” Get me every time… I wanna say, “shut up go follow the instructions, and make a guitar.” Or, ‘Dude, “The registration holes on one template don’t line up with the other, they’re .002” off…. Again, I wanna say, shut up go follow the instructions and make a guitar.”

Bottom line is, if ya just go make ‘em, everything falls into place, it’s when the woodshop challenged get creative, things can get funky.

Now shut up and let’s go make saw dust….. bring the beer…

Ron Kirn


PS...

Terry's right, sometimes ya just take things for granted...

http://66.77.255.87/Images/DREMELACC..._PD/407_pd.jpg

highly recommended tool

rk

[shoretyus]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

So for those not aware, consider, when dropping below about 1/8 inch tolerance there are no two vintage Fender guitars exactly the same.

Ron Kirn

That is the first thing that I figured out. Long before I cut anything. But I do have woodworking experience.

I kept having to remind myself that these are production guitars designed for assembly and adjustment. Look at the length of screw on the bridge.

For my first build I built four guitars and necks. Think they are the same ?

[robt57]

I sure hope I am not getting cataloged as a griper for my question Ron. There is a first time for every thing, and if I have a question before I do something the first time, I am glad I have someone to ask, particularly to the tune of a $80.00 patronage. Who else would I ask but the person I got the item from??

Due respect, R

[Ronkirn]

nah, I don't think anyone of the TDPRIers have, it's from external users. Those here in the forum are all well informed,

rk

[robt57]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

nah, I don't think anyone of the TDPRIers have, it's from external users. Those here in the forum are all well informed,

rk

Well I was after you informed me anyway. ;)

[Ronkirn]

I don't mind peeps asking for clarification, ever. It's just that there are always those that just HAVE to find fault, or go over an imprecise component with precision tools and try to suggest all kind or remedies to make something that has been proven over and over since the 80's, either more correct, or better.

rk

[milkshape]

Templates have been super for me, only critique would be a little more language on the belly cut for a strat. But a little research got what I needed. Still would love to see a pro strat build, please? I might even send you some surlyn spheres ;)

[Ronkirn]

see a pro strat build,

It's coming.... I already photographed the glue up.... Sitka Spruce. . . in a week or so...

Ron Kirn

[milkshape]

Way cool, thanks for the heads up.

[Nick JD]

My templates are a bit like continental plates and a bit like Fender. Somewhere between the Jurassic and the Triassic they were perfect.

Luckily, I have a mosquito preserved in Nitrocellulose that I will extract the DNA of the original Telecaster. Then, we can all sound like a Phonograph in Mono.

There is no Beauty without variation.

[Clive Hugh]

Ron,
I have two Fender strats. the '61 reissue is 10mm wider than the '86 MIA and that's the same company. I guess there aint a standard there either.

[Ronkirn]

Yep, I have an 89 CS Strat I made templates from, they're so much different from the '62 Strat, it would be a stretch to say one was a copy of the other.

rk

[jwc5]

Great info Mr. Kirn. Thank you.... I think I'll leave necks and bodies to the experts for now and learn how to paint first.

[woodman]

it's hard to imagine anybody complaining about Ron's temps. with the included step-by-step instructions, all you have to do is follow your nose. even with the help of an experienced woodworker, i made plenty of rookie mistakes and still came out with an excellent body. i think some folks demand "perfection" without really knowing what a vague concept perfection is.

[Superc_1]

Over on the mando cafe forum one time a guy wrote about the journey of the build. If a person could build a prefect guitar the first and figure out of the methods from the start were would the satifaction of the trip be? I make mistakes on every build I do, but I learned from them. It makes me look forward to next build, because I know the next one will be a little better and then the next one will be better after that that one. If a person gets so anal about .002 of a neck pocket I don't think they could ever finish a build, and thats no fun. Start making saw dust!!

[HiggyDude]

I bought Ron's Tele templates. I have a Fender Am Std Tele plus a Warmoth body and and AllParts body - none of them were the same size. Like Robt57 - I did ask Ron, on the TDPRI, why they were different. But I asked why - I did not challenge the difference - I wanted to be educated and not criticize. Ron explained the reasons, exactly as above. I then was educated and followed his teachings to a "T" - went to the garage -> looked at the templates and bodies -> opened beer -> drank beer -> made sawdust with a smile -> shut shop tools down -> drank more beer