detailed pics of Broadcaster 0635

nacho · April 6th, 2008, 01:50 PM

I am enclosing more detailed pics on the body finish of Broadcaster 0635.
http://www.ranchoweb.com/public/?45718
I hope you can appreciate the realistic job Clive did. Its just amazing.
I really believe that 15 years ago this guitar would have been passed as an original by most everyone out there without a question...which leads me to another question, where are we heading? will there come a time where discerning original from refinish will be an impossible task? Clive will surely be able to recognize his work, but will he or other experts be able to recognize other luthier restorations?...I am pretty confident we will, as long as we have the originals handy to compare, but still this brings questions to my mind. I have to admit 15 years ago I didnt think someone could ever reach the level of Clives and others work

I have seen repairs that could hardly be seen even underblacklight, especially if you didnt know they were there to begin with...
So how will this affect the vintage market? I think this will always be healthy as far as everyone is disclosing upfront whats going on...but Ive already been told for a fact that some guitars that were expertly refurbished years ago are now being offered as the real thing is some places..

NB

Telemarkman · April 6th, 2008, 02:11 PM

I'll have to say that with my limited (to say the least) experience with vintage Telecasters, you could have me fooled anytime. I've studied your excellent book very closely, and there's no way I could tell this refinish from the real thing. Words fail me ...

It is a bit scary though - if it can fool me, then I guess it could fool someone else, and we all know how the vintage market has become. So I guess I share your concern about this aspect ...

jwells393 · April 6th, 2008, 02:45 PM

Nacho .......... perhaps you could explain how a blacklight is used to detect repairs or refinishes.

PeterUK · April 6th, 2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacho

So how will this affect the vintage market? I think this will always be healthy as far as everyone is disclosing upfront whats going on...but Ive already been told for a fact that some guitars that were expertly refurbished years ago are now being offered as the real thing is some places..

NB

Nacho, when I got mine I was staggered how "real" it looked. With a few detail components like tuners likely to be produced in the near future, I think we could soon have a vintage replica market on our hands!

Yours looks fabulous!

Peter

nacho · April 6th, 2008, 04:13 PM

Its hard for me to talk about colors since I myself am color blind

. I showed a pic of this in my book, in the finish chapter, comparing an original finish with an aged refinish in both normal light (very similar shade) and blacklight (totally different shade)
If you use color pigments to give the finish a certain artificial aged look, those will show through blacklight as darker shade. Some people are making repairs using blacklight to avoid this. The original finish fluoreces very bright yellowish/greenish shade in all cases, both if its minty shiny lookin or very dark buttrescotchy. If you go to custom colors this gets far more tricky.
years ago I ceased my interest on custom color fender guitars

nb

Scotland · April 6th, 2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telemarkman

I'll have to say that with my limited (to say the least) experience with vintage Telecasters, you could have me fooled anytime. I've studied your excellent book very closely, and there's no way I could tell this refinish from the real thing. Words fail me ...

It is a bit scary though - if it can fool me, then I guess it could fool someone else, and we all know how the vintage market has become. So I guess I share your concern about this aspect ...

Me too !! Whatever, this just proves how damned good Clive Brown is. I want one to look exactly like that, even if it was branded FAKE on the back, I still want it !!

olewichita · April 6th, 2008, 04:59 PM

very nice... tj

BroadMaster · April 6th, 2008, 05:14 PM

nacho, that is certainly a fine refin. I am in awe. You can be very sure, that the audience will never know the difference, if you show up at a gig with that. FINE specimen, indeed!

scarb · April 6th, 2008, 06:42 PM

"where are we heading? will there come a time where discerning original from refinish will be an impossible task? Clive will surely be able to recognize his work, "

I think another thing to think about Nacho, is that if someone was to see a "Clive" or other equally re-finned tele, I think most buyers would assume/want it to be an "Original" or "Real" finish so bad, they could be easily fooled. I doubt many would look at your tele and think 1st, "Absolutely not real", on the contrary, I believe they would drool, and hand you a blank check! If a buyer tells themselves it is original just by looks, they could be in trouble. The "I want to belive it is real " buyers are the ones who will buy the altered guitars, and later pass them along as real. "It fooled me, It'll fool someone else", will become the norm. The better the re-finner's get, the more you better KNOW what you are buying.

My 2 cents.

Taipan · April 6th, 2008, 10:58 PM

Nacho - Thanks for sharing this build and the images. Mr Brown's work and attention to detail is nothing short of amazing.

opdev1 · June 5th, 2008, 11:18 AM

I am hoping to see these pix. The link is not working.

e-merlin · June 5th, 2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacho

So how will this affect the vintage market? I think this will always be healthy as far as everyone is disclosing upfront whats going on...but Ive already been told for a fact that some guitars that were expertly refurbished years ago are now being offered as the real thing is some places..

NB

As long as there is a ravenous market for vintage, there will be those willing to misrepresent their goods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nacho

If you use color pigments to give the finish a certain artificial aged look, those will show through blacklight as darker shade. Some people are making repairs using blacklight to avoid this.
nb

So, it's started already? What's to stop them from doing a total refin like this? What's to stop them from doing a whole guitar like that?

The vintage market holds no interest for me. It's a collectors market as far as I'm concerned. Who plays out with a real Nocaster any more? Especially when there are such good repros out there.

mistermullens · June 5th, 2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opdev1

I am hoping to see these pix. The link is not working.

Me too! I got all excited when I saw this thread and then linky no worky.

opdev1 · July 31st, 2008, 05:00 PM

I took some detailed pix of this guitar so I'll link to them

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19848951

timmer · July 31st, 2008, 08:42 PM

Thanks for the pics!

It's possible that the market for "vintage" gear will be drastically reduced when you can no longer tell what is authentic.

Twang Tone · August 1st, 2008, 08:21 AM

Very nice, Nacho. Thanks for sharing.

But I thought Broadcaster's bridge saddle height screws were drilled at an angle?? If it had had those, I would have been fooled!

Thanks,

opdev1 · August 1st, 2008, 08:31 AM

Twang,

Do you think these are not the original saddles?

opdev1 · August 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM

I just looked in the BG book. Nacho actually has 0636 in there. It has straight saddle screws as well (another one does too).

The ones earlier in the book show the angled saddles.

Twang Tone · August 1st, 2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opdev1

Twang,

Do you think these are not the original saddles?

I only had this guitar in my hands for a few days .

Well, first off, when Nacho said:

"I really believe that 15 years ago this guitar would have been passed as an original by most everyone out there without a question..."

I guess he's acknowledging there that this guitar is not 100 per cent genuine. So as to whether the saddles are original, I wouldn't know!

But I thought I'd read once that Broadcasters had the unique feature of angled height adjustment screws (drilled at 45 degrees leaning back), where Nocasters/Telecasters/Esquires had regular saddles screws, drilled at 90 degrees.

Perhaps Nacho can shed some light on it?? He's an expert!!

Thanks,

opdev1 · August 1st, 2008, 08:50 AM

The things I know are not original

Finish
Frets
Pickguard
Tuners (from 1952)
Pots (date to 1949)
Wiring (old style but sort of messed with)
Neck Screws
One Spring on bridge
Pickguard Screws (mostly)
One Saddle adjustment screw
Decal

Original parts
Body
Neck
Bridge/Saddles
Neck Plate
Both Pups
Knobs and control plate
Switch
Milled Jack Cup
Nut
String Tree

Post Toastie · August 1st, 2008, 09:03 AM

I have always felt that clone guitars were very easy to do(just like Muscle cars).People on these pages always say take the neck off and check the date.What is so hard about using a lead pencil to forge a neck date stamp or use paint as needed?Same with the bridge, just have a machinist stamp in the Wording and a serial #.It seems the only tricky part is finding the right serial# to use and the way everyone on these pages loves to volunteer their serial # gives the crooks plenty of choices.To me the serial # is like a Social Security #. Lets all post our Social Security # ??

purpletele · August 1st, 2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Post Toastie

I have always felt that clone guitars were very easy to do(just like Muscle cars).People on these pages always say take the neck off and check the date.What is so hard about using a lead pencil to forge a neck date stamp or use paint as needed?Same with the bridge, just have a machinist stamp in the Wording and a serial #.It seems the only tricky part is finding the right serial# to use and the way everyone on these pages loves to volunteer their serial # gives the crooks plenty of choices.To me the serial # is like a Social Security #. Lets all post our Social Security # ??

because there are alot of smaller less noticeable details that counterfeiters will usually miss.

opdev1 · August 1st, 2008, 09:46 AM

Sorry, you'll have to PM me for my SS #

Post Toastie · August 1st, 2008, 09:56 AM

Hey Purpletele, Its like anything else there are good counterfeiters and bad.I am sure the good ones will know all the little things just fine.Maybe Fender and big time experts may notice maybe not.What if a guy that worked for Fender for 30 years got involved with cloning these guitars?They only made 490 Mustang 1969 boss 429 muscle cars and today there are over 800 that look exact.The only thing is the serial # that makes the real ones documented.The problem with guitars is i have never gone to the DMV to register my guitars so who really knows who owns what serial # legally?

April 6th, 2008, 01:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
nacho Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 379	detailed pics of Broadcaster 0635 I am enclosing more detailed pics on the body finish of Broadcaster 0635. http://www.ranchoweb.com/public/?45718 I hope you can appreciate the realistic job Clive did. Its just amazing. I really believe that 15 years ago this guitar would have been passed as an original by most everyone out there without a question...which leads me to another question, where are we heading? will there come a time where discerning original from refinish will be an impossible task? Clive will surely be able to recognize his work, but will he or other experts be able to recognize other luthier restorations?...I am pretty confident we will, as long as we have the originals handy to compare, but still this brings questions to my mind. I have to admit 15 years ago I didnt think someone could ever reach the level of Clives and others work I have seen repairs that could hardly be seen even underblacklight, especially if you didnt know they were there to begin with... So how will this affect the vintage market? I think this will always be healthy as far as everyone is disclosing upfront whats going on...but Ive already been told for a fact that some guitars that were expertly refurbished years ago are now being offered as the real thing is some places.. NB

April 6th, 2008, 02:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 64 Posts: 11,901 101 Photos	Nacho .......... perhaps you could explain how a blacklight is used to detect repairs or refinishes. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" _ Guys - learn to disable the flash on your digital cameras.

April 6th, 2008, 04:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
nacho Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 379	finishes Its hard for me to talk about colors since I myself am color blind . I showed a pic of this in my book, in the finish chapter, comparing an original finish with an aged refinish in both normal light (very similar shade) and blacklight (totally different shade) If you use color pigments to give the finish a certain artificial aged look, those will show through blacklight as darker shade. Some people are making repairs using blacklight to avoid this. The original finish fluoreces very bright yellowish/greenish shade in all cases, both if its minty shiny lookin or very dark buttrescotchy. If you go to custom colors this gets far more tricky. years ago I ceased my interest on custom color fender guitars nb

April 6th, 2008, 05:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
BroadMaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: PARIS. REPUBLIC of TEXAS Age: 55 Posts: 1,519 4 Photos	nacho, that is certainly a fine refin. I am in awe. You can be very sure, that the audience will never know the difference, if you show up at a gig with that. FINE specimen, indeed! __________________ {disclaimer} It's like EVERYTHING* else on this entire forum, it boils down to what *YOU* choose, to suit you. If the human mind was a simple thing to understand, we would be too simple to understand it.

July 31st, 2008, 08:42 PM	#15 (permalink)
timmer Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: On the banks of the Pontchartrain Age: 48 Posts: 1,224 26 Photos	Thanks for the pics! It's possible that the market for "vintage" gear will be drastically reduced when you can no longer tell what is authentic. __________________ "Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own." George Bernard Shaw

April 6th, 2008, 02:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Telemarkman Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Norway Age: 61 Posts: 4,359	I'll have to say that with my limited (to say the least) experience with vintage Telecasters, you could have me fooled anytime. I've studied your excellent book very closely, and there's no way I could tell this refinish from the real thing. Words fail me ... It is a bit scary though - if it can fool me, then I guess it could fool someone else, and we all know how the vintage market has become. So I guess I share your concern about this aspect ...

April 6th, 2008, 04:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
olewichita Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: austin, tx Posts: 1,188	very nice... tj

April 6th, 2008, 06:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
scarb Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 113	"where are we heading? will there come a time where discerning original from refinish will be an impossible task? Clive will surely be able to recognize his work, " I think another thing to think about Nacho, is that if someone was to see a "Clive" or other equally re-finned tele, I think most buyers would assume/want it to be an "Original" or "Real" finish so bad, they could be easily fooled. I doubt many would look at your tele and think 1st, "Absolutely not real", on the contrary, I believe they would drool, and hand you a blank check! If a buyer tells themselves it is original just by looks, they could be in trouble. The "I want to belive it is real " buyers are the ones who will buy the altered guitars, and later pass them along as real. "It fooled me, It'll fool someone else", will become the norm. The better the re-finner's get, the more you better KNOW what you are buying. My 2 cents.

April 6th, 2008, 10:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
Taipan Tele-Meister Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Western NY State Age: 49 Posts: 422	Nacho - Thanks for sharing this build and the images. Mr Brown's work and attention to detail is nothing short of amazing.

June 5th, 2008, 11:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	I am hoping to see these pix. The link is not working.

July 31st, 2008, 05:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	I took some detailed pix of this guitar so I'll link to them http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19848951

August 1st, 2008, 08:21 AM	#16 (permalink)
Twang Tone Tele-Holic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London, England Age: 35 Posts: 823	Very nice, Nacho. Thanks for sharing. But I thought Broadcaster's bridge saddle height screws were drilled at an angle?? If it had had those, I would have been fooled! Thanks, __________________ TT Ridicule is nothing to be scared of!

August 1st, 2008, 08:31 AM	#17 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	Twang, Do you think these are not the original saddles? Last edited by opdev1; August 2nd, 2008 at 07:33 AM.

August 1st, 2008, 08:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	I just looked in the BG book. Nacho actually has 0636 in there. It has straight saddle screws as well (another one does too). The ones earlier in the book show the angled saddles.

August 1st, 2008, 08:50 AM	#20 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	The things I know are not original Finish Frets Pickguard Tuners (from 1952) Pots (date to 1949) Wiring (old style but sort of messed with) Neck Screws One Spring on bridge Pickguard Screws (mostly) One Saddle adjustment screw Decal Original parts Body Neck Bridge/Saddles Neck Plate Both Pups Knobs and control plate Switch Milled Jack Cup Nut String Tree

August 1st, 2008, 09:03 AM	#21 (permalink)
Post Toastie Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: fullerton,ca Age: 54 Posts: 269	I have always felt that clone guitars were very easy to do(just like Muscle cars).People on these pages always say take the neck off and check the date.What is so hard about using a lead pencil to forge a neck date stamp or use paint as needed?Same with the bridge, just have a machinist stamp in the Wording and a serial #.It seems the only tricky part is finding the right serial# to use and the way everyone on these pages loves to volunteer their serial # gives the crooks plenty of choices.To me the serial # is like a Social Security #. Lets all post our Social Security # ??

August 1st, 2008, 09:46 AM	#23 (permalink)
opdev1 Tele-Meister Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Age: 41 Posts: 293	Sorry, you'll have to PM me for my SS #

August 1st, 2008, 09:56 AM	#24 (permalink)
Post Toastie Tele-Meister Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: fullerton,ca Age: 54 Posts: 269	Hey Purpletele, Its like anything else there are good counterfeiters and bad.I am sure the good ones will know all the little things just fine.Maybe Fender and big time experts may notice maybe not.What if a guy that worked for Fender for 30 years got involved with cloning these guitars?They only made 490 Mustang 1969 boss 429 muscle cars and today there are over 800 that look exact.The only thing is the serial # that makes the real ones documented.The problem with guitars is i have never gone to the DMV to register my guitars so who really knows who owns what serial # legally?