Truth in Capacitors

[nadzab]

Originally Posted by Kirfew

just a load of nonsense

This.

Nice picture, imsilly.

[Rob DiStefano]

gotta love this information age millennium, where the hype and bs continues to florish at epidemic rates.

in passive guitar circuits, all that matters for capacitors is value, tolerance and build.

don't be clueless - save the pio, bumbershoot, audio boutique caps for real electronic circuits, like amps.

[Jupiter]

The relevant part for this discussion starts at 9:30. (Beware the F-bombs!)


Measured value, baby!

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by Jupiter

The relevant part for this discussion starts at 9:30. (Beware the F-bombs!)


Measured value, baby!

"It doesn't f'ing matter, it doesn't f'ing matter..."

I agree with Fezz.

[TequilaCaster]

Sheesh! Now I have to go pee...

[drvoodoo]

To clarify my rather long post and answer the OP, as others have said, it is a lot of nonscens. If you feel the need to use a specific type of cap do that, but it does not really affect tone IME. I'd rather save that money a couple of PIO costs and get myself a Ron Kirn tele-template set (yes, prices in Sweden for the more expensive PIO caps are high. 4-5 of Jensen PIOs = one set of Kirn templates.. ) No affilation to Kirn

[itsGreg]

I used a pio in my telecaster but mostly just because I like the look of them, even though I never see it!
It's the little things...

[cornfed]

I totally disagree with everyone, but I do agree with everyone else

[Bubbalou]

Originally Posted by Wayne Alexander

You'll find that a large percentage of those who post in capacitor-related posts on this forum will say that the only hearable quality of a capacitor used as a tone cap in a guitar is the measured capacitance value. I cannot understand that, since I personally can hear tonal quality differences between caps made of different materials (PIO, ceramic, polyester, mica, polypropylene, and whatever that waxy stuff is in some old brown Sprague caps) - to my ears, and I am by no means alone in this perception, different types of caps which have the same measured capacitance will give you different texture/distortion characteristics. These "texture" differences are not anywhere near as significant as the differences between capacitance values, but to my ears they're definitely there. I don't care what you believe, or what you do, do what you want in this regard. But just because someone here tells you "it can't make any difference" don't believe that. Test it yourself and see if you can hear differences in cap types - it doesn't cost much, and doesn't take long. Whenever I'm building, or adjusting, a guitar, I'll grab a pile of caps of different values and types, grab a couple wires with alligator clips on them, and try the various caps with the tone and volume controls on the guitar, and on the amp, in different positions. I pretty much always will prefer one type of cap over others. To my ears, in order of preference from worst to best for my ears, ceramic caps sound harsh and grainy, polypropylene ones (like 715 series Orange Drops) sound pretty clinical, Polyester ones like Sozos or Mallory 150s sound pretty neutral and are just fine, and Paper in Oil ones, have a little "fatter" character which I tend to like the best. (All of the foregoing refer to what the guitar sounds like with the tone control turned down enough that it's rolling off a fair amount of treble). I'm not trying to sell you anything, and my advice is to see whether you personally have a preference - swap in several caps yourself and see what you conclude based on your ears.

Wayne, haven't you been paying attention? The overwhelming consensis here is that only the rating (0.022mfd, 0.047mfd etc) make the only difference in tone. What you and I hear in the difference between such types as Polyester exibiting a better tone than Polyprophylene cannot possibly be so I guess then if that were true then I favor polyester because I like the name better than polypropheline possibly because it's easier to spell.

Wayne, which brand of Paper and Oil are you using?

[TeleTim911]

What's the best? Whatever you think it is. If you believe it to be best, then it is.

How will you know? Try it. Try anything you like. It's your guitar, there are no "rules".

[jefrs]

I don't use ceramic because they absorb moisture and change value with the weather, plus they are brittle and bits fall off, plus they are small with thin small wires which tend to break off easily.

I don't use PIO because they leak and make a sticky mess. Old wireless radio sets are full of these nasty things. If you must use them then do test measure their value because they are not stable.

I use either "orange drop" polyester at 17p.ea or axial polyester at 37p.ea
Don't get ripped off. There's a huge electronics industry out-there, these things are as cheap as chips. Only use genuine snake oil.

Values from 5nF (treble bleed) to 220nF (super mud) - normally 22nF strat or 47nF tele
Why does a strat use 22nF? - because there are two tone controls in parallel to 44nF when both in play. Also use 22nF on 2+2 control systems for same reason.

Do experiment with different values ...

[dconeill]

Originally Posted by Manolete

...
Remember that the guitar industry is now catering as a "lifestyle choice" ... for rich fat middle-aged white guys who played a bit of guitar in college... [and who] suck at guitar ...

I resent this. I'm not middle-aged, I'm old.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by dconeill

I resent this. I'm not middle-aged, I'm old.

Old is the new middle-aged.

[notdave]

Originally Posted by Northerntele

That's a bit creepy. I like it.

+1

Where is that imsilly?

Oh, on topic. I use orange drops.

I like the colour.

[DrBanana]

I love these threads. When I put my first guitar together I agonised for ages on what caps to use - Yet I never use my tone control on my guitar, I do it all from my amp and my pedals. What a dufus.

[imsilly]

Originally Posted by notdave

+1

Where is that imsilly?.

Just an old mausoleum about 5 minutes from where I live. I took 3 photos of it. I'm planning on going through a bunch of old churchyards and cemeteries near where I live.

Though when I read up online about opening times all I could find were times to go dogging or cruising in them. Add that to the fact I don't own a camera means I'm not doing it until I have a buddy to go with me.

[Ronkirn]

http://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefie...ize-your-caps/


that’s a pretty good article… go read it…. Please……

I have posted this analogy several times…

In the passive circuits in our guitars, “passive” meaning no external electricity is supplied, the capacitor at the most basic application, and most sonically noticeable, understanding is similar to a hole in a garden hose with a faucet attached. As you open the faucet, here representing the tone control, It allows high frequencies to escape to ground…. They are absolutely gone, not recoverable, turning the tone controls on the amp does not add them back, it only further “shapes” those frequencies that did not escape.

The shape of the hole in the hose will not impact the water that remains in the hose… similarly, the “supposed” quality of the capacitor, allowing frequencies to escape will not impact the frequencies that did not escape.

The quality of a capacitor does not impact the quality of the tone in a guitar’s circuit… it cannot. A capacitor does not have a “sound” it has a value, and it is that value that represents how big the “hole” is that is allowing the highs to escape.

Capacitors are manufactured to a tolerance… a value is stated, say, .047 and the cap is considered OK, if it falls anywhere within a range, expresses as a percentage. So a .047, might actually be a few microfarads above or below the stated value. It is those variations that cause the subtle tone difference when two caps of similar values are compared. That’s it….

While the most comprehensive discussion of the brief explanation I offer is actually real “rocket science”… as it applies to the astounding simple circuits in our guitars…it’s somewhat more simple.

Now for the nay sayers….…. In ACTIVE circuits… one that has power supplied, like your amp, a capacitor’s function has a greatly expanded function, and can perform a number of seemingly unrelated functions. In these circuits it does far more than simply provide a “hole” for frequencies to escape, so the type of construction can have a significant impact. However, we aren’t talking about the amp. We’re talking about the guitar.

AND…Actually, changing the caps in an amp, CAN result in a substantial improvement in sound…. IF YOU LIKE the resulting sound, “like” being the key word. Remember, for anything you do to be an improvement, or an upgrade, you gotta like the resulting sound. You can spend thousands in “stuff” to upgrade your guitar, and if you don’t like the resulting sound, it’s hardly an upgrade is it… it’s just an expensive learning experience.

Ron Kirn

[Crg2]

Originally Posted by imsilly

Here is a picture I took 2 days ago with a camera I borrowed from a friend. I don't think it's relevant or helpful. I just think it'll be nice to add something different to these kinds of threads.

Reminds me of that scene in Mario Bava's "Black Sunday" where the coffin explodes, and Barbara Steele's character comes back from the dead.

Oh, about caps, someone tell dude that this discussion is a no-no around here.

Oh, no. Mr. Kirn already got to him. Too late.

. . . and, "uuuuuuuuuuhh, weiner", huh-huh. There-I said it, Beavis.

[Wayne Alexander]

Bubbalou,

I've used a variety of PIO caps in guitars. I really haven't tried any that didn't sound good, and warmer/richer than polyester types, which tend to be second best to my ears. The new-production Jensens sound great to me - I haven't done a-b testing to be able to decide whether the RS ones are any different than the ones at Angela Instruments, nor can I say whether the aluminum versus the copper ones sound different from each other. The cheaper Russian ones (that you can buy repackaged under the Luxe brand for a lot more money) also sound good, though I may like the Jensens slightly better. I've got a few old Sprague bumblebees and black beauties, when the capacitance measures in the right ranges they seem to add a little extra harmonic complexity, especially when the tone control is cranked down to "woman tone" area.



I've never spent more than $20 on a cap and most of them have been a lot less than that - in the $5 apiece range for the Russian ones and random/not much at all for old bumblebees and black beauties, I've just bought batches of old caps and fished them out. Given how much guitar parts cost (it's easy to spend over $100 on a pickup), I don't see the cost of a cap or two as significant.

Of course, many here will say that I can't possibly hear what I hear, so for those of you who fall into that camp, please ignore the above. It's not for you. I'm not trying to sell you anything, though I am trying to get you to try a bunch of different composition caps when you're setting up your guitars, to see whether you like the sound of your guitar better with one or another. If you don't hear a difference then don't pay this subject any mind.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Wayne Alexander

...

Of course, many here will say that I can't possibly hear what I hear, so for those of you who fall into that camp, please ignore the above. It's not for you. I'm not trying to sell you anything, though I am trying to get you to try a bunch of different composition caps when you're setting up your guitars, to see whether you like the sound of your guitar better with one or another. If you don't hear a difference then don't pay this subject any mind.

between four metered caps - ceramic, mylar/polyester, metal film and pio - tested in the same guitar and straight to the same amp, you may think you can hear a difference, but that's just yer brain pandering to yer ego.

way back in the dark ages i also bought in the boutique cap nonsense, amongst other silly guitar notions, but real world testing in laboratory scenarios proved otherwise. all that matters for passive circuit caps is value, tolerance and build. in a blindfold test you wouldn't tell the difference. really. i've tried and so have others, folks who are audio engineers and audio freaks. none could call the pio out of 5 other poly/film caps. seriously. and if you CAN hear a cap difference, there's an anomaly you haven't spotted - look for it, you'll find it. been there, done that. just sayin' ....