Understanding Bill Lawrence

[mg426]

I stumbled upon an interview with Bill lawrence. In so he explains the effect of cable length on guitars pickups. I am to dumb to decipher what he is explaining but assume that he is telling us the avoid very long cables. Something about the capacitince of the cables reaching a point that it may make a drastic effect upon ones sound. I know this sounds like a strech but anyone have any ideas about such theories ???

[notdave]

Cables (and not 'only' cables) will introduce inductive reactance and capacitive reactance. Both will cause 'noise' in a signal travelling through the cable.

Got a link to the article?

[notdave]

Have a read of this, it may clarify some of the above.

http://dc318.4shared.com/doc/DE2qB0K_/preview.html

[sjtalon]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...fxtHNQ&cad=rja


http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Connector_Cable.htm

[mg426]

This is the interview I came across...Interesting...But a bit over my head
http://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/bill-lawrence

[fendrguitplayr]

Originally Posted by notdave

Cables (and not 'only' cables) will introduce inductive reactance and capacitive reactance. Both will cause 'noise' in a signal travelling through the cable.

Agreed.

[Ronkirn]

in the simplest terms.... a capacitor in the passive circuit of the guitars we all love is an “escape rout” for the higher frequencies. They’re gone… they’re outta here…. And they aren’t coming back.

It is these higher frequencies that contain the “information” that define qualities like articulation, harmonic overtones, the “airy” quality of the sound, the “bell like” sweetness of the sound. So… if some are leaking away, those qualities will be diminished. Note.. the mentioned qualities are NOT producing a bright tone, a bright tone results when the higher end of the spectrum is artificially “boosted”, not a feature of Bill’s work.

You can “boost” frequencies from, say, 800 hz to a few thousand and have that “cat’s claws in a tin roof” overly bright sound… but none of the articulation that give a quality audio reproducer the sound of quality, a consistent characteristic of Bill’s pickups and periphals.

Thus if you use a “low rent” cable with a high capacitance, expressed as pico-farads per meter, or foot, it can allow some of that high frequency info to be lost… and LOST is the right word, it is NOT and cannot be “resurrected” by turning the amp’s treble control up, that only works with those frequencies that are remaining. Here’s a tip… If you are looking for a cable, and the capacitance isn’t listed. It isn’t worth doo… it doesn’t matter how “pretty” it looks, electrons don’t know what’s on the outside of the copper.

Now, to be sure, there are other peripheral electrical influences the capacitance introduced to the passive circuits can and will impart, but…. The above is the major concern, and the one easiest to hear.

And…please…. Keep this in mind… none of all this esoteric electrical considerations mean JACK, as long as you like the sound of whatever you have. Hell, it could be some POS you scroungeds out of a Wal-Mart special… if you like it, that is all that matters.

So… the “grass” is not necessarily greener, it’s just some other “grass” on the other side of the fence. If you Like Zoysia instead of St, Augustine, or Kentucky Blue, cool, go for it…

Bill’s approach to pickup design is virtually unparalleled in the world of pickups. His goal is purity of sound, a faithful reproduction of what the string is doing, without the additional “Coloration” some pickups or “other stuff” are known for. This is why he will so adamantly share info about something seemingly so subtle as cable capacitance.

Other designers, steer their designs to achieve a specific sound, such as, say, a ’50 broadcaster, or a ’54 Tele, or that of some specific guitarist… There is nothing even remotely wrong with that approach. If you are looking for THAT sound, that is what to choose…

Bill designs pickups to be a neutral component in the tone chain. It should add nothing to the sound the String is producing, but it should reproduce the string's sound efficiently, and thoroughly.

The “math” required to achieve such is daunting to say the least. He is coaching me now… I’m like a High School algebra student discussing math with Pierre de Fermat, or a Physics student learning from Hans Betha….. and I’m on “ludes”.

If you are choosing a pickup, again, say the ’54 Tele… it is intentionally designed to have a sonic “flaw” or “flaws”… (from an acoustic science of reproduction perspective) the same flaws found in the original ’54 tele. Again, not a bad thing… if that’s the sound you want…. Funny how things work out, If ya wanna be someplace, ya gotta go there…. Psst… that’s secret… don’t tell anyone that.

If you consider the recording process in the high end studios, considerable $$$ are spent selecting mikes, monitors, electronics, mixers, and all the other peripherals that add nothing sonically, other than what the producer/director is doing with the controls, to whatever is being recorded. Your pickup should be as invisible.

Since it is not uncommon to spend exponentially higher $$$ for such extreme neutrality, the fact that Bill gives it to you at such reasonable cost is phenomenal. And that he is so willing to freely offer advice on how to achieve what so many are blindly searching for, should serve as an example for all that are in a position to share.

He is a constant source of information, often just plain fascinating. Further he is responsible for being the origination for most of the innovations seen in pickups today…

So when he says something…. I listen, it would be beneficial for any that are on the “tone quest” to do so with equal enthusiasm. Who knows, ya might actually learn something useful in a world that is so gawddammmm full ‘o bull.

This is an excellent 4 minutes.. and the tip of the proverbial iceberg…

http://www.namm.org/library/oral-history/bill-lawrence


Ron Kirn

[fender4life]

Long cables can actually HELP if the rig is very bright. I once did a gig many years ago where a short 2 foot cable that went from a effect sitting on top of the amp to the input was bad when i set up, and all i had left was a 25' cable. So i rolled that up and used that in place of the 2 footer. My tone that nite was better than i ever had with that rig and it wasn't till much later it hit me the cable had rolled off the excessive high end i often had to deal with. After i thought of that i did an experiment where i made a cable out of some old small stuff i had found and never used on a big roll. I cut off about 50 feet of the stuff and rolled it up (which may cause even more capacitance, i dunno) and used it in addition to my regular cable, and the tone went so dar it sounded like my tone knob was all the way down.

[AlexArkansas]

---redundant post--

[AlexArkansas]

Thanks so much for that, Mr Kirn! I'll definitely be springing for some BL pickups when I save up a few nickels. He doesn't throw in one of your guitars when you buy a set, does he ?

[mg426]

Dang Ron....I been talkin to ya about a Barnbuster.$$$$ coming shortly. If I can afford it after my Physics class...LOL Thank you for getting me to really think. As the quest for tone continues...I hope I dont bother you to much...Thanks again.

[KokoTele]

In even more simple terms... any and everything in your signal chain will affect your sound, it's simply a matter of how much. Very long cables, even high quality ones, will color your sound. The better the cable, the less color there is.

Ron's right about Bill's approach to pickup design, but it also happens to be a philosophy I don't think results in superior sound.

A good analogy is something I learned about making vodka vs. making whiskey: the basic ingredients are the same and the process begins in a similar way. The key difference is that vodka is produced in such a way to remove as many as the impurities as possible (either through carefully controlling the distilling process or through filtration). Whiskey drinkers call those impurities "flavor."

So, musically speaking, are you a whiskey drinker or a vodka drinker? For me, it's whiskey.

[mg426]

With all due respect..and no offense intended..I have tried a plethora of Whiskey flavored pickups...I am going to give Vodka a try...!

[KokoTele]

There's no reason to worry about hurting anyone's feelings about what sounds you like to hear in a pickup!

[soulman969]

To Ron Kirn, KokoTele, and sjtalon, thanks for sharing your knowledge and those links. Everyday I learn a bit more from you good people and knowledge is golden. Thanks for the efforts guys.

[Ronkirn]

it also happens to be a philosophy I don't think results in superior sound.

What's that baseline for determining that "superior sound"?

And If I got it right... I reckon it's being said that superior sound is achieved by intentionally distorting the audio spectrum “with impurities” to invoke EQ upon the pure sound the string is generating. Or let’s just corrupt the crap out of it until it’s “perfect”.

A pure sound is a definitive. It can be measured in an appropriately equipped sonic lab. However a tone achieved by introducing “impurities” is absolutely any and everything else. It’s about as definitive as sewer sludge. Yes there CAN be found something useful in sludge, it just has to be… umm, what’s the word… oh yeah… purified.

If you have an unencumbered sound, you and/or the audio engineers have the luxury of adding whatever “impurities” they feel will achieve the sound the producer is looking for. If the sound is pre-skewed in one direction, It cannot be “un-skewed”. You are “stuck” with that sound. It can be further modified, but purity is NOT and cannot be an option in that situation.

Here, "Superior Sound" is being presented as though it is a definitive, a specific achievable “point”. I would suggest it is not, it is only "superior" relative to the ONE hearing it, assuming they prefer it over all other sound they have sampled. If they convince others it is “better”, then it is “superior” to those few converts. That still leaves 7 billon others that may not think it’s quite so superior.

This is why my premises is, when a change is made, be it a cord, or the whole rig . . . any change, it is ONLY a lateral move. It becomes vertical only after it has been considered, and a determination as to its state relative to whatever existed prior to the change, is made. In that situation it could be either an improvement, or a degradation, the one owning the guitar gets to choose, “we” don’t get to choose for them. Remember vertical goes up, and down….

Also, and this is important… a Whisky drinker never says he’s just a whiskey drinker, it’s a Scotch, a Bourbon, a Kentucky Bourbon, Tennessee Mash, drinker, etc. etc… Of course, guys that drink Miller Lite, think they do though..

ron

[mg426]

All I am after is pure tone nothing more nothing less. I dont feel that having Ron build me an AXE out of primo wood with his own hands warrents anything less than what that primo wood is saying....Just saying...Thanks to everyone..!!!

[KokoTele]

Simmer down a little, Ron. I never said anything that would remotely imply that there's a benchmark of what "superior tone" is. As always, it's in the ear of the beholder.

My preference tends towards the tradtional, imperfect designs, and that those traditional designs result in tone that is more complex, nuanced, and pleasing. Every attempt I've heard at "improving" these designs in fundamental ways, as Bill does, sounds less pleasing to me. I've made no secret about how I feel about Bill's pickups. They're okay, nothing to write home about. They're engineered to overcome what Bill believes are faults of the crude way a standard Tele pickup is made (and from an audio engineering perspective, they are), but all that engineering perfection just sounds flat to my ears.

mg426, I'd be surprised if what you were really after is "pure tone." If that's what you really wanted, you'd be close micing your unamplified guitar through a powerful PA with a ton of headroom so that you could truly be amplifying what the strings are doing. The pickups, effects, and amplifier all add important dimensions of character to your tone, and they are far from pure.

Many threads get to a point where there's more noise than signal, so I check out. I think this is one of them.

[mg426]

What I truly want is a situation as to where I can add what I want as opposed to try and take something away...I have a great PA system with loads of headroom. Mixer,compressor,effects EQ... the whole nine yards..I also have a soundman I have worked with for 30+ years...I respect everyones views and believe it or not I learn from everyone...From beginners to experts. I consider you guys experts hence this thread...Thank you for your time and responses...MJG

[soulman969]

Now I'm really anxious to contrast what those Keystones will sound like in comparison to Nocasters and Alnico V's. It's the primary reason I decided to put them in the CVC so that I'd be able to hear one more approach to building a pickup.

I'm no audio engineer but but I've surely hung around with enough of them and learned a few lessons in the process. It will be nice to listen to a pickup that was designed to be as tonally pure as it can get. My ears and my brain tend to appreciate clarity and definition and if the Keystones are as uncolored as you indicate Ron that should be a great way to better explore what the rest of the signal chain does.

I love to explore the tonal envelope the guitar and amp will produce.