Question about neck radius's

[jeremypodom]

I was having some gear-talk with my teacher the other day during my lesson. While I have the utmost respect for him as a player, I think he may have some weird (incorrect) ideas about set-ups. This is essentially what he tried to tell me:

That the reason I get buzz is because my neck has a fairly large radius.

This goes against everything I know about guitars, but I'm asking here to confirm whether he was right or not. I had my strat fret-leveled at the end of last summer and the action was phenomenal.... I've just had to hike it up a lot since then because the frets worn down rather quickly. Apparently my strat has some soft fret wire.

He showed me his strat, which had a compound neck, and the action was really high by necessity of the buzz. He said he's never had a guitar fret leveled, and I think that may be where he's getting this misunderstanding. I know that having a very round radius on your neck can contribute to fretting out during bends, but as far as I know the actual fret job has most to do with what kind of action you can set up.

Thoughts?

[LocustPlague]

Smaller radius will have more buzz when bending. The reason is because only one point of the string is moving tangentially along the cylindrical shape of the fretboard. If the board were totally flat, you could bend for miles without encountering the fretboard.

Theoretically, the compound neck will have more buzz than a single-radius guitar IF the single-radius is the radius of the fretboard near the heel of the neck. This is because the compound radius starts fairly tight and then goes to a flatter radius. Bends up near the headstock will fret out a little sooner.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by LocustPlague

Smaller radius will have more buzz when bending. The reason is because only one point of the string is moving tangentially along the cylindrical shape of the fretboard. If the board were totally flat, you could bend for miles without encountering the fretboard.

Theoretically, the compound neck will have more buzz than a single-radius guitar IF the single-radius is the radius of the fretboard near the heel of the neck. This is because the compound radius starts fairly tight and then goes to a flatter radius. Bends up near the headstock will fret out a little sooner.

How much higher would string height have to be on a rounder neck vs a flatter one, then, if you're wanting to do lots of bending? It seems that a good fret job would make the difference very small.

As far as just hitting a single note without bending, though, any radius should be capable of the same low action... as far as I know.

[telex76]

No matter what the radius, strings shouldn't buzz unless you have uneven frets, or if you just have your action set too low.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by telex76

No matter what the radius, strings shouldn't buzz unless you have uneven frets, or if you just have your action set too low.

That's what I thought. Thanks!

[Guitarmadcat]

It's not radius's - it's radii (radi - eye)

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by Guitarmadcat

It's not radius's - it's radii (radi - eye)

It can be radiuses. I much prefer this because I'm not Roman.

And to help the OP - google "fretboard geometry tdpri".

[Guitarmadcat]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

It can be radiuses. I much prefer this because I'm not Roman.

And to help the OP - google "fretboard geometry tdpri".

Are you implying that most on here are illiterate? (I hope not!)

And it's not a case of what you prefer - it's how it is! (Or is Australian a language now?!)

[63dot]

There's no doubt that a fairly flat radius, say 9.5" or 10" inches, allows for considerably lower action than a round 7.25" inch vintage Fender radius. The advantage of the round radius is that for people who play in the first position with chords, may find it more comfortable for longer periods of time. While a very flat 12" inch or 16" inch radius is phenomenal for fast, low action lead playing, that neck is just not that fun for playing chords in the first position.

Buzzing is something that can be worked with. If I have too much buzz, I raise the action and also get a better tone. If I lower the action, I can play faster leads. Depending on what I am into playing at the time, I adjust my action on the guitar. If I want to play really fast, I hide any buzzing and bad tone with big amps. My semi-hollowbody jazz guitar with humbuckers and 13s sound very similar to a dual humbucker solidbody guitar with low action with 9s on it. What one hears with a 100 watt Marshall is the amp first, and then way down the list, the fact that the guitars sport humbuckers. I have never encountered bad issues with worrying about buzzing with such a setup.

However, with a small amp in a clean setting, medium to higher action sounds much better. Also I find 9s don't have a warm enough tone for me, so I go 10 or higher. I don't think there is just one setup, low or high on strings, which can go through every style effortlessly. Fool with the action and see what happens and note what sounds best under different situations and also how the guitar plays for you. For me, constant experimentation is what makes guitar a lot of fun.

[Nick JD]

Originally Posted by Guitarmadcat

Are you implying that most on here are illiterate? (I hope not!)

And it's not a case of what you prefer - it's how it is! (Or is Australian a language now?!)

Google "radiuses dictionary". Maybe not the Oxford English Dictionary ... but all the other ones say radiuses is fine.

Also, google "macquarie dictionary". There's words in there that aren't in the English one!

[BritishBluesBoy]

Your guitar teacher has never had his frets leveled...?? Ummmm... If I were in your place I think I'd be looking for a new teacher right about now.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by BritishBluesBoy

Your guitar teacher has never had his frets leveled...?? Ummmm... If I were in your place I think I'd be looking for a new teacher right about now.

I don't need him to tell me about gear, I research that on my own. He's my teacher because he knows his theory and he's an incredible player. If you saw his playing you'd be eating your words.

I'd place money that his non-fret leveled guitar in his hands would play circles around you.

[BritishBluesBoy]

Originally Posted by jeremypodom

I don't need him to tell me about gear, I research that on my own. He's my teacher because he knows his theory and he's an incredible player. If you saw his playing you'd be eating your words.

I'd place money that his non-fret leveled guitar in his hands would play circles around you.

Ha ha ha ha ha... Whatever mate. If he helps you then that's great, but my more than 35 years of playing (and teaching) tells me that a guitar teacher that doesn't know about the benefits of a properly set up guitar sounds thoroughly fishy to me.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by BritishBluesBoy

Ha ha ha ha ha... Whatever mate. If he helps you then that's great, but my more than 35 years of playing (and teaching) tells me that a guitar teacher that doesn't know about the benefits of a properly set up guitar sounds thoroughly fishy to me.

Hasn't there been a whole slew of fantastic guitarists who liked their action high?

[bendecaster]

Back to the question: Jeremy, are you asking about buzzing open strings, or fretted strings? If you are talking about open strings buzzing, I'd have to agree with telex76.

[jeremypodom]

Originally Posted by bendecaster

Back to the question: Jeremy, are you asking about buzzing open strings, or fretted strings? If you are talking about open strings buzzing, I'd have to agree with telex76.

Fretted. Particularly with bends. I understand that if you have a guitar with a near-flat neck versus one with a very round radius, and both are set up well with a proper fret job, then there will be a difference in the lowest possible action between the two. My (new) question is, how much is that difference?

[brians356]

It is a fact that the smaller the radius, the more prone it will be to "fretting out" or "noting out" (two common terms for buzzing or damping out in extreme bending) and the lower the action the more likely it is to occur. And it is going to happen in the upper register, hence the popularity of the compound radius scheme of flattening the board progressively towards the upper frets. A common and reasonable example would be 9.5" radius at the nut progressing to a 12" radius at the high end of the board.

All things being equal, properly leveled frets will reduce buzzing out to the absolute minimum possible with the existing action height and fretboard radius scheme, so that's the place to start. If it still buzzes out after that, the choices are to raise the action or go to a flatter or compounded radius.

[brians356]

Not only have some fantastic guitarists liked their actions high, but some extreme string benders have, too. B.B. King comes to mind.

Some benders like the action higher to allow the fingernail on the bending finger to slip smoothly under the adjacent string(s.) And a higher action and/or heavier strings produces what some players consider superior tone, even if bending requires extra effort.

[Telemach_1]

I played the classic small radius almost most of my playing time and still do. Not that I don't appreciate the new 9 1/2" radius but the 7 1/4" isn't all that bad as it may appear in discussions. If the guitar is set up properly it will work all good. The buzz out phenomenon can be minimized or completely eliminated according to the proper height of the strings. I'm an extreme bender and believe me,... in some cases my 7,25" radius guitars are even less buzzy and overall better players.

The three main features that I like about the 7,25" necks are:

1. In fact 7,25" radii have the potential to be the better sounding necks and with more sustain With their smaller radius on the fret board surface they have a tad more surface, meat and bow which adds to the necks rigidity against string pull. Think of an old arch.

2. The smaller neck radius lets the motion of your bending fingers go steaper up hill which adds to more contact and placement between the strings and your finger tips. Benefit is that you need less clamping force to keep the strings from slipping away from your finger tips. With large radius frets this can happen more easily. Think of a very straight neck radius.

3. If you happen to play vintage style Fender frets in addition an other nice advantage will come to play. Due to less height of the frets the all over string to fret board distance will be smaller. The result is a different angle between the pulling force and the neck. You will have more sustain and more of that woody sound the closer the distance between the stings and the neck. Only draw back is that you will have more contact between your finger tips and the finger board. The nitro laquer will feel stickier and act as a brake especially when sweating in summer and under the lights. If you find that this is a significant disadvantage then you could still decide whether or not 9105 frets might be a good replacement for your 7,25" neck.

But what am I saying? everybody sure might see it different. In the end keep in mind that musical history has been written on 7,25 radius and that our mega bending guitar gods and gozillions of other guitar slingers have played this type of necks with great success.

You don't necessarily have to be in this league to get along w. this radius nicely. Be asured, it can be done ;)