Donahue method for 3 or 6 saddle set up

[Steely_Ken]

I guess this has been posted a few times but thought I would throw it up.
It also works equally as well with a 6 saddle bridge.

We asked "Bendmaster of the Telecaster" Jerry Donahue to share some of his secrets for setting up a Telecaster® bridge and keeping it properly intonated (Jerry demonstrates this technique in his clinics).

Attention all current and would-be Tele® slingers! You needn't resort to six individual bridge saddles to improve your intonation. The original Broadcaster design called for three brass saddles: and that's still the best design today. The larger saddles mean more mass, providing greater output, sustain and tone. Also, with two strings per saddle, you have twice the string pressure against the body! [Editor's note: The Fender® Custom Shop Jerry Donahue model and "JD" Tele® use the three vintage brass saddles].

Now, on to intonation: Until fairly recently, I felt that a guitar couldn't really play in tune unless each string's 12th fret harmonic and 12th fret note had the exact same reading on the electric tuner. And of course, they never do on a three-saddle bridge. I finally settled on a technique that not only deals with this problem but, to my delight, addresses other inherent problems also. Here it is: Adjust the middle saddle's intonation screw so that the "D" string's 12th fret note reads slightly flat of the 12th fret harmonic on your tuner. Then, check out the "G" string's 12th fretted note. This note should be only MARGINALLY sharp of the harmonic. Are you with me? Now tune your guitar, with the open "G" string reading somewhere between A440 and A439 (so that the 12th FRETTED note is at A440). Tune the other strings as one would normally. Final adjusments can be made by ear when you compare first position E major and E minor chords. The E major's G# note (third string, 1st fret) should no longer seem sharp in the chord; and the open "G" string should still be perceptively in tune within the E minor chord.

Here's another for instance: An "A" chord barred at the fifth fret sounds fine. But when the nearest "E" is played (5th string, 7th fret/ 4th string, 6th fret/ 3rd string, 4th fret/ 2nd string, 5th fret), it typically sounds "off." The major third is the culprit (4th string, 6th fret): it typically sounds sharp. But with my adjus™ent (the 4th string's 12th fretted note being slightly flat) the problem no longer exists. There is a small margin of error here, which actually works to the guitarist's advantage!

OCCASIONALLY, depending on the guage of your strings and the force of your picking hand, it might also serve you to marginally flatten the low E string. I do this as I use a 42 and like to hit it fairly hard sometimes. Trust your own ears, though, as each instrument tends to be different, too.

A final qualification in adopting all the aforementioned technique: A piano tuner may use an electronic tuner as a point of reference. But if he tuned the entire keyboard to be "perfect", it would sound awful. The bottom keys actually must be tuned sharp and the high ones tuned flat. This is the only way the human brain will perceive the piano to be in tune. It's essentially the same concept I've applied here to the Telecaster®. I really like this method. Once I adopted it, my Tele's® sounded noticeably more in tune than my Strats® (across all of the chord shapes) ... so I've since made the same adjus™ents to the Strats®!!

Remember, life is about compromise. Check it out!" - Jerry Donahue
Taken from
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support...addle_up_your/

[Bartholomew3]

"providing greater output, sustain and tone"


Is a croc - as the expression goes. I put a badass brass bridge on a 68 tele way back for the above reasons.

[jefrs]

If you tune the open 3rd to A then at the 12th fret it should be 880Hz

3rd string 2nd fret is the A below middle-C = 440Hz concert reference pitch.

If you use a Peterson tuner set to guitar "sweetening" of pitch then the appropriate compensation is already applied.

Do not rely on just the 12th fret octave for intonation, check and adjust intonation at e.g. 10th, 15th, and 17th frets using a good tuner. It may be found that you can get these notes in but not the 12th fret octave. Some compromise is required and can require running the open 3rd a few cents flat (also slightly less flat on 2nd and 4th strings cf Earvana nut), again the Peterson tuner allows for this. This tuner's tuning method provides moderately good intonation on a standard 3 barrel bridge (i.e. straight non-compensated saddles).

[KokoTele]

Originally Posted by jefrs

If you tune the open 3rd to A then at the 12th fret it should be 880Hz

3rd string 2nd fret is the A below middle-C = 440Hz concert reference pitch.

He's not refering to the actual frequency of the notes, he's referring to the setting to use on your tuner. Imprecise language.

[cowpunk]

This may be a tad of an exaggeration, but I think many, if not most, reasonable tele connoisseurs believe that 3 barrel saddles sound fuller than 6 block/bent saddles. Personally, I'm still on the fence. So far it seems to be true, but I haven't tried the Gotoh or Micawber type bridge yet.

Oh, back on subject. I've tried this and it worked brilliantly. I eventually went to slant saddles, but this technique almost evens the playing field...almost.

Originally Posted by Bartholomew3

"providing greater output, sustain and tone"


Is a croc - as the expression goes. I put a badass brass bridge on a 68 tele way back for the above reasons.

[Steely_Ken]

If you don't think this is a factor... Tune your G string open and then fret it at the 1st fret and see what the tuner says for G#...
As a pedal steel player I know that many people can not even hear if the 3rds are out from being so used to Equal Temperament tuning... Which is a good thing.... But!
This is an unsolvable problem that has been argued for thousands of years.
All we can do is work on it in order to improve.

[jefrs]

Originally Posted by KokoTele

He's not refering to the actual frequency of the notes, he's referring to the setting to use on your tuner. Imprecise language.

That's not the way I read it, "Now tune your guitar, with the open "G" string reading somewhere between A440 and A439 (so that the 12th FRETTED note is at A440)." Apologies to steely_ken if I am misunderstanding this.
However I do understand the concept of tuning an open string slightly sharp or flat to adjust the intonation for fretted notes.

I was just pointing out that the better tuners, like the Peterson set to "GTR", do this automatically, e.g. so that 3rd string 1st fret comes up as G# - the open string is actually just slightly flat.

The Earvana nut does a similar trick by shortening the G string, and the Petersen really needs be set to chromatic for tuning these (they also have a Feiten mode). Imo the Earvana is only a cure for problem necks. Strictly speaking the Peterson needs to be in chromatic mode when setting intonation (and then you do have to understand what it is telling you), but the results in GTR mode are more than adequate.

[Steely_Ken]

Thanks Jefers
The tuning issue is a slippery slope and yes I like and use Peterson tuners.
Its always confusing with tuning when people use Htz and Cents.
The phrase using A440 is referring to a standard of tuning and not actual frequency of the G note.
Set the G string intonation a little flat hence 439-ish open and 440 at the fretted 12th fret.
Tuning is a band issue and is a team effort.
Most guitar players hear this discrepancy and raise the high E string to make it sound in tune when as a group it would sound better or be worth trying to lower the B or G instead.
This tuning adjustment is to be done by ear and to taste involving some compromise.
People who have been using (Normal Tuners) or equal temperament tuning as are most western / American people, are used to hearing 3rds a little sharp and the 5ths a little flat and it sounds correct to them.
People used to hearing vocal harmony's or (steel guitar) are hearing Just Intonation tuning.
To give you a Steel guitarist's perspective... Most people hit a G chord and don't really give it much thought.
A Pedal Steel player has to listen to this and slide the bar up to that G.
If the singer sings a little off pitch and a couple guitars are slightly off ET-440 it is like trying to hit multiple moving targets..
This is why we have vibrato and it is the cure all for the human hearing perception.
I tune differently for playing with a keyboard (A440 ET) than with a guitar fiddle band.
This is one reason tight harmony's and steel guitar sound so good is because they are in Just intonation ... (flattened 3rds and sharp 5ths) .
When there is a key change it has to re-adjust 3rds and 5ths like an orchestra..
This is why we have Equal Temperament tuning ..
E.T. or slang term A-440 is a good thing but not perfectly in tune in all keys.
And this is why Pedal Steel Players are crazy..Ha!

[jefrs]

+1 Steely_Ken

Btw if you have a real piano in the band then you have to tune to that, and then the nightmare begins because pianos are sharp at the top end and flat at the other, but it sounds right to our ears. And probably why we like that top E 1st slightly sharp (and causes problems around the 7th fret)

I sometimes tune the acoustic to play sweetly in a given key, and it sounds diabolical if you change key, or move up the fretboard.

Good luck with that pedal steel.

You have a vocalist that sings on pitch? - they don't have equal temperament ;-)

[Dougeetar]

This is driving me nuts. I am following Jerry Donaghue´s instructions but whatever I do the D string 12th fret note is always sharp of the harmonic, never flat. The G string´s 12th fret note is WAY sharp of the harmonic. Having tried these adjustments the guitar is more out of tune than ever.

I should add that on every string the 12th fretted note is quite a bit sharp of the harmonic and open notes, both of which are in tune on the tuner, so playing up the neck sounds a bit "off". I think I need to visit a guitar tech or buy a six saddle bridge.

[diffeecult]

Originally Posted by Dougeetar

This is driving me nuts. I am following Jerry Donaghue´s instructions but whatever I do the D string 12th fret note is always sharp of the harmonic, never flat. The G string´s 12th fret note is WAY sharp of the harmonic. Having tried these adjustments the guitar is more out of tune than ever.

I should add that on every string the 12th fretted note is quite a bit sharp of the harmonic and open notes, both of which are in tune on the tuner, so playing up the neck sounds a bit "off". I think I need to visit a guitar tech or buy a six saddle bridge.

I believe your saddles are too far forward. You need adjust them back to get more length between the 12th fret and the saddles. I really don't use the harmonics to set intonation. I use the open string to the 12th fretted note.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by diffeecult

I believe your saddles are too far forward. You need adjust them back to get more length between the 12th fret and the saddles. I really don't use the harmonics to set intonation. I use the open string to the 12th fretted note.

+1

I agree. Doug, keep tinkering with the placement of the saddle, get away from the e-tuner as much as you can (use your ears) and never mind about the harmonic unless you use lots (and I mean lots) of harmonics in your playing.

[Dougeetar]

Thanks Boris and Difeecult:)

Last night I was so tired of this that I moved all of the saddles back and went to bed. This morning it is in tune. It must be what you said about the saddle distance...I now have renewed patience for more tinkering:) Cheers!

[jonkay1]

One thing Jerry Donahue says in his article I don't get. After explaining the procedure for the G and D string saddle, he says "then tune the other strings normally". What does that mean? Which string gets priority at the other two bridge saddles? If I tune the low A note for good intonation, the E is off, and if I tune the E string for good intonation the A is off. On my guitar, the intonation of the E and B notes are pretty good, but a tuning compromise has to be made for the lower saddle. It is something that Jerry does not address in his article. Should I use the open G as a reference pitch and tune the 6th string 3rd fret G to that note?

[ScottieHotrod]

Originally Posted by jonkay1

One thing Jerry Donahue says in his article I don't get. After explaining the procedure for the G and D string saddle, he says "then tune the other strings normally". What does that mean? Which string gets priority at the other two bridge saddles? If I tune the low A note for good intonation, the E is off, and if I tune the E string for good intonation the A is off. On my guitar, the intonation of the E and B notes are pretty good, but a tuning compromise has to be made for the lower saddle. It is something that Jerry does not address in his article. Should I use the open G as a reference pitch and tune the 6th string 3rd fret G to that note?

I have the low E and A strings slightly flat because I hit them quite hard and the top two E and B are a cents or two off either way.

Generally it sounds fine, I think his method for the G string is important because that string can make chords sound horrible and muddy and just wrong.

[edit] Just to clarify, the open G is tuned a little flat so the chords sound good. Don't tune the rest of the guitar to the G string.

[Doug 54]

Ahh, throw it all out the window!!

JD's signature Wilkinson gtr has the Wilkinson bridge with compensated saddles!!!


.

[jonkay1]

The open G is tuned flat during intonation, right? When you are tuning the guitar in general, the open G would be tuned to be spot on, would it not?

[brians356]

Really? Sorry, I have to chuckle at you chaps struggling to get Donahue's new tuning "method" to work for you. And I hope Jerry reads this forum and is laughing, too. Jerry has come up with a personalized "sweetened" tuning that satisfies his ear with his particular guitar setup. Have fun playing with it, but let's be sensible about chucking what's worked for thousands of guitarists for decades, including all the iconic players whose recordings you've admired.

Remember, equal temperament tuning is, by design, "out of tune" a bit everywhere. To be specific, all 4ths are wide, 3rds are really wide, and 5ths are narrow. If you sweeten the tuning to favor certain intervals and chords, you throw it out worse somewhere else. There ain't no free lunch.

Brian

[Bartholomew3]

I usually work below the 12th fret as a trio plus singer. Bad intonation and sour notes especially sharp notes on chords are very obvious without a 2nd guitar player or keyboard to help cover it up.

So I don't always want the intonation right on at the 12th and set-up so it averages out down the fingerboard. Setting intonation flat on some strings & some guitars works better in my experience.

Your fingers and pick will pull sharp notes in the heat of battle on stage. Not the same as doing it alone at home.

[brians356]

There are a plethora of reasons why someone's pet tuning trick probably won't work well for anyone else.

A partial list of fixed variables which affect intonation besides saddle compensations:

Nut compensation (even plain nuts are "cheated forward" a bit)
Scale length
Neck relief
Neck stiffness
String heights at nut
String heights at upper frets
String winding type and material, core design (and is G wound or plain?)
String diameters
Fret crown height

And some dynamic variables:

Fingering pressure
Fingering technique (e.g. inadvertent bending)

Now, ask yourself how many of these variables are likely to match between you and your guitar and Jerry Donahue and his guitar?

Brian