My Tele is stiff... break angle ?

[Phil_tre]

Hi !

I have a very nice Partcaster made of a Warmoth
body and an Allparts neck. I build (assembled) it
myself, did a frets surfacing job, the truss rod is
ok at .003" @ 8th fret, the action is perfect at 4/64",
the nut is also perfectly cut (very low but no buzz).

This Tele is setup perfectly for my standard but the
damn thing is so hard to play, it's stiff as hell !!!
It require a lot of pression to make a note or a chord...

...compared to my 2010 MiM, I need to fight the Partcaster.
Both Tele are setup exactly the same way and with the
same strings. The MiM have med jumbo frets and the Partcaster
have the 6105...

The only difference that I can see is the break angle of the strings
at the bridge... Very steep with the stiff guitar... Could I solve
my problem with a shim in the neck pocket on the headstock side ?
The saddles are at max hight also...

Photo:


Any help is welcome !

Thanks !

Philippe

[telex76]

Yes, that's the difference. Shim on the headstock side will let you lower saddles and reduce break angle.

[KokoTele]

Look at the break angle over the nut as well.

[Phil_tre]

Thanks guys !

I feel more comfortable doing it with your advices...

Eric, The nut is as low as possible, maybe 0.004" between
the strings and the 1st fret... (when I fret the 3rd fret...)

Will try the shim... I hate to put a shim but will make a nice
taper one with maple wood... it will be clean

Philippe

[telex76]

Originally Posted by philqc

Thanks guys !

I feel more comfortable doing it with your advices...

Eric, The nut is as low as possible, maybe 0.004" between
the strings and the 1st fret... (when I fret the 3rd fret...)

Will try the shim... I hate to put a shim but will make a nice
taper one with maple wood... it will be clean

Philippe

It probably only needs to be as thick as a business card, I've never needed one more than 2 thicknesses of a business card.

[davmac]

I'm curious to see how this one turns out. I cannot for the life of me imagine how the break angle at either is going to radically affect the tension of the string. For a given gauge of string over a given distance tuned to a given frequency then isn't the tension of the string going to be the same? What am I missing?

[KokoTele]

Phillipe, I actuall menat the break angle over the nut. I think you've confused it with the action at the nut.

Depending on the design of the neck and the position of the string retainers, it's possible to create a pretty strong break angle over the nut, and that would make it feel stiffer as well.


Davmac, I'm afraid that you're going to take us down a path that never ends well :-)

This topic is tricky (and, it turns out, a very messy math and physics problem) because the string is longer than the part that vibrates between the nut and bridge. When you bend a note, you're stretching the string along its entire length, from anchor point to anchor point (tuner post to ball end).

I haven't found anyone who can work out the math of how the break angle figures into the equation (though one physicist promised me that there is at least one differential equation involved). All I know is that the break angle over the nut and bridge do affect how slinky a string feels.

[cobbp]

Buy a top loading bridge and the break at the bridge end will be less.

[spauldingrules]

Accept the fact that some guitars just play differently. Lower your string gauge or tune down a bit.

I was quite unhappy with one of my guitars, until I accepted that it sounded much better tuned to e flat.

[Phil_tre]

Originally Posted by KokoTele

Phillipe, I actuall menat the break angle over the nut. I think you've confused it with the action at the nut.

Depending on the design of the neck and the position of the string retainers, it's possible to create a pretty strong break angle over the nut, and that would make it feel stiffer as well.


Davmac, I'm afraid that you're going to take us down a path that never ends well :-)

This topic is tricky (and, it turns out, a very messy math and physics problem) because the string is longer than the part that vibrates between the nut and bridge. When you bend a note, you're stretching the string along its entire length, from anchor point to anchor point (tuner post to ball end).

I haven't found anyone who can work out the math of how the break angle figures into the equation (though one physicist promised me that there is at least one differential equation involved). All I know is that the break angle over the nut and bridge do affect how slinky a string feels.

Yep, the break angle at the nut, from the headstock is pretty low.
it's the Allparts neck that I got from you and this neck is straight
as an arrow... If I compared it with my MiM, it's about the same
break angle...

It's pretty evident for me that it will make a difference after thinking
about it and I will sure give you some feedback when it's done...

Thanks again !

Philippe

[davmac]

Originally Posted by KokoTele

Davmac, I'm afraid that you're going to take us down a path that never ends well :-)

This topic is tricky (and, it turns out, a very messy math and physics problem) because the string is longer than the part that vibrates between the nut and bridge. When you bend a note, you're stretching the string along its entire length, from anchor point to anchor point (tuner post to ball end).

I haven't found anyone who can work out the math of how the break angle figures into the equation (though one physicist promised me that there is at least one differential equation involved). All I know is that the break angle over the nut and bridge do affect how slinky a string feels.

Hahaha. Yes you could well be right with that one. The maths isn't actually that tricky (no differential equations but familiarity with Lami's therorem would help). Of course I realise that the elasticity of the string occurs along its whole length, and as you bend/stretch the string you'll get slight different tensions either side of the nut (if we just concentrate on one end for a minute). How much those two tensions can differ depends on the friction across the nut and that friction is directly proportional to the amount of downforce. A steeper break angle means more downforce and therefore more friction and therefore a allows greater mismatch in tension. My curiosity is not about whether this happens - but to what extent you can feel it. I've experimented a lot with changing break angles and to be honest have never been able to feel that much difference - but of course that could just be me.

[SixShooter]

If break angle over the nut effects ease of bending, I wonder what would happen if you eliminated the string retainer. It would be easy to try. Of course, this would only help the first and second strings.

[telex76]

Originally Posted by spauldingrules

Accept the fact that some guitars just play differently. Lower your string gauge or tune down a bit.

I was quite unhappy with one of my guitars, until I accepted that it sounded much better tuned to e flat.

Yes, never try to get them set up correctly.

[KokoTele]

Originally Posted by SixShooter

If break angle over the nut effects ease of bending, I wonder what would happen if you eliminated the string retainer. It would be easy to try. Of course, this would only help the first and second strings.

I've played a few retainer-less guitars with those staggered-height tuners and they do feel a little slinkier on the high strings. I also felt that the E and B strings didn't resonate quite the way they should.

[spauldingrules]

Nice. So what you are saying is that all guitars that are "set up correctly" play exactly the same? The neck could be a little stiffer, or whatever, making for a microscopic difference that is noticeable but not measurable (realistically).

Some guitars, in my experience, just work better with different gauge strings or different tunings. Heck, the string brand is likely to make a bigger difference if it is already set up decently.

But thanks for the thoughtful response.

Originally Posted by telex76

Yes, never try to get them set up correctly.

[jefrs]

The saddle screws are showing, therefore the saddles are not too high.
- what screws are used preventing the saddles being raised further?

Beside this "break angle" will not affect stiffness. The saddles do look rather far back but that is because of where the bridge plate is, can't "fix" it without moving it - leave it alone.

The string height at the bridge looks ok. Can we get a pic of the neck and string height there?

You appear to have put the strings on backwards?

3-thou clearance at the 8th fret seems very low? - what does this mean?
- is this the capo at 1st and fret at 21st gap? (3-thou is low)

If you ask half a dozen physicists about the maths regarding string bending and the affect of the break angle over the nut there is a 95% probability that you will receive a dozen different answers, only 30% of which will have anything to do with strings or guitars. (there is a Swedish paper/thesis on string mass vs length and pitch),

[Vizcaster]

Originally Posted by davmac

I've experimented a lot with changing break angles and to be honest have never been able to feel that much difference - but of course that could just be me.

Shimming the neck to change the break angle over Tele saddles does make a difference, but unless you're looking for it it could be a subtle one (by that I mean that it might not make enough of a difference in a particular case). On a guitar with a tune-o-matic bridge and stop-tailpiece, you can experiment with top-wrapping the tailpiece (or at least raising it up) and the effect is a little more discernible. With the break-angle reduced, the strings feel slinkier (that's as close as I'm getting to a technical term like "compliance" and I'm certainly staying away from "tension"). It's easier to bend a string, but at the same time you have to bend further in order to get the same pitch change.

If you're trying to get a feel for the guitar, see how far you have to push the string to get a 1-1/2 step bend. Some guitars feel tighter than others.

And besides, if they didn't all feel different, how would we justify buying the next one?

[Phil_tre]

Originally Posted by jefrs

The string height at the bridge looks ok. Can we get a pic of the neck and string height there?

You appear to have put the strings on backwards?

3-thou clearance at the 8th fret seems very low? - what does this mean?
- is this the capo at 1st and fret at 21st gap? (3-thou is low)

I'm a lefty player, for my the strings are the right side

.003" is the gap between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of
the strings with a capo at the 1st fret and 21st fret.

The action without capo is 4/64" @ the 17th fret...

The setup is Ok...




Thanks !

Phil.

[MikeMurray]

Just chiming in about string tension.. I actually noticed this on my Les Paul before I knew about the whole break angle vs tension story.. Was fiddling around with it one day, had the tailpiece locked down, raised it up in 3 increments and lowered it again, so that's a total of 4 positions tested twice (except one) and I noticed there was a sweet spot in terms of string tension, and it wasn't subtle. Raising it 3/16ths made a noticable difference in terms of playability, really helped me get that damn bend in "a whole lotta love". Did some reading on this at a later stage (interesting thread on the SD forums a long while back) and decided to ignore all the technical crap and just tweak it on an individual basis :)

[jefrs]

Originally Posted by philqc

I'm a lefty player, for my the strings are the right side

.003" is the gap between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of
the strings with a capo at the 1st fret and 21st fret.

The action without capo is 4/64" @ the 17th fret...

The setup is Ok...




Thanks !

Phil.

3-thou is too small, the Fender tele manual states 10-thou.
There's a reason for this, having set the truss rod just-so then the bridge and/or the neck tilt (micro-tilt or shim) is adjusted to give height of 2mm for strings 1-4 and 2.4mm for strings 5-6 at fret 17.

If you tighten the truss rod, the neck becomes too straight, and you do have to adjust the action height out at the bridge. If the neck curvature is greater, then the bridge can be lowered. This also provides more comfortable playing.