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Old January 15th, 2011, 08:13 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Push Pull or S-1 switch

Right, so I'm a little new around here, searched the forum a bit for some opinions on this but couldn't find much:

I'd like to do the 4-way switch mod to my Am Standard Tele, preferably with a push/pull 'override' so that I can select the series position regardless of the position of the 3-way switch. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has done this as to whether or not a push/pull pot or Fender's S-1 style pot are the better choice.

WD Music sell push/pull pots, anybody used them who could comment on quality?

Thanks,

Simon

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Old January 15th, 2011, 08:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The S-1 is a 4-pole 2-way (4PDT) switch unlike a push-pull which is a 2-pole job (DPDT), it's purpose is to invert a pickup and drop a cap into the circuit, not do the series/parallel thing. The S-1 is well made and robust, the plastic tube that connects the top button is a bit iffy. I've only seen strat-topped S-1 switches on sale.

The 4-way selector provides series, neck, parallel & bridge, it's as simple as that, it hardly needs an over-ride. Less is more - why have an extra switch doing the same job. Not even sure the S-1 or a push-pull will do it in all situations.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Deaf Eddie has diagrams for push-pull series override. I prefer S-1 but many prefer push-pull instead. Darren Riley sells S-1 for tele (also sometimes other vendors on eBay)
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Old January 15th, 2011, 10:16 AM   #4 (permalink)

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Quote:
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The S-1 is well made and robust, the plastic tube that connects the top button is a bit iffy.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that statement at all. The S-1 circuitry is a tone-suck, and the best modification you can make to an S-1 equipped guitar is to rip that sucker out.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 10:25 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I have a p/p in a Deluxe Tele ( was a Nashville) to get series. I have Nocasters in that one. Works great, and you still have the reg. 3 way.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 11:13 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I haven't don't any comparisons to verify the claim that S-1 switching sucks tone. Having installed both S-1 switching and push-pull circuits I do believe S-1 switching is overkill for a Tele. A 4-way selector switch and a push-pull pot or two will do anything an S-1 will do. That's my 2-cents. Now someone who knows what they're talking about can weigh in and teach me something I don't know about S-1 switching.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 01:03 PM   #7 (permalink)

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Bud, the S-1 is a 4PDT switch, and it uses that 4th pole to activate a capacitor to simulate extra quackiness in the out-of-phase sound. Fender's fond of that design and has used it in the Jerry Donahue model as well.

In order to use that design, you need a 4 pole switch, which you can't get as a normal push-pull. You can get them in blade switches, rotary switches, and even mini-toggles. Since none of those are great solutions for what they wanted to do, they engineered this switch with tiny little contacts and tiny little signal wires.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Bud, the S-1 is a 4PDT switch, and it uses that 4th pole to activate a capacitor to simulate extra quackiness in the out-of-phase sound..
Extra capacitor is added only if you add one. The switch does not have a capacitor built-in.

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Since none of those are great solutions for what they wanted to do, they engineered this switch with tiny little contacts and tiny little signal wires.
Not any smaller than pickup wires... in fact larger. The size of the contact is a non issue, nor the size of the wires.

I can understand the reliability and robustness of S-1 being questioned, but calling it tone-suck is BS in my humble opinion.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 04:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Well as always there seems to be many differing opinions. I guess if you can hear a tonal difference that you don't like, then that would be 'tone sucking' to your individual ears. As for me, I think I'll go with a push/pull pot for simplicity of design and ease of soldering. I had considered the normal 4-way switch wiring, but I can see myself fumbling around with it too much and inevitably the plastic end bit will fly off and disappear between the floorboards somewhere!
Thanks for all the replies, most helpful.
Simon
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Old January 15th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #10 (permalink)

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Extra capacitor is added only if you add one. The switch does not have a capacitor built-in.
I'm certainly not going to engage a flame war over this, but your response makes me think that you haven't actually looked at the assembly. There is indeed a capacitor activated as part of the circuit, and the wires are about 1/2 the gauge of a standard pickup wire. The traces and connections on the circuit board are even smaller.

Removing the S-1 from my Baja and replacing it with a standard CTS pot was a tremendous improvement.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 04:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The Baja has a cap added to its S-1 switch. If you just buy the switch, it doesn't have a cap.

No flamewar necessary. Your opinions are entirely yours. Happy to hear that your Baja mod worked out for you.
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Old January 15th, 2011, 04:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that statement at all. The S-1 circuitry is a tone-suck, and the best modification you can make to an S-1 equipped guitar is to rip that sucker out.
Tone suck ???obviously never actually played it in anger ..
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Old January 15th, 2011, 09:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I knew I'd learn something new. Thanks Koko.
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Old April 27th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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tone suck?

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Originally Posted by KokoTele View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that statement at all. The S-1 circuitry is a tone-suck, and the best modification you can make to an S-1 equipped guitar is to rip that sucker out.
How can it be a tone suck? you obviously never used one. unless you normally wire your pick ups with no pots at all, then there's no difference between it and a DPDT except the available (use it or not) extra poles. How can you say its a tone suck? you must not know much about how these things work. the circuitry is the same, a switch is a switch. the only difference is the cosmetic and logistical value of not having a raised volume knob when its activated to knock down with your hand while strumming. it works exactly like a dpdt, but has two more poles available if you want them. internally, the function is the same. I think you're just quoting something you heard from someone else out of context.
don't listen to that guy. If you want the convenience of a push-push instead of push pull, use S-1. It makes no difference tonally. The electrical path is exactly the same as a push-push. I find the S-1 invaluable on my strat as opposed to a push-pull always getting bumped off by the pickin hand.
All that said, using it on a tele seems a redundant waste of time when you only have 2 pick ups. I use a simple 4 way tele switch on mine to get bridge, bridge/neck par, neck, and bridge/neck series. S-1 is more useful on a strat or other 3 pu guitar.
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Old April 27th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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This is gonna get interesting.

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Old April 27th, 2013, 05:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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sroney - manners count for a lot around here
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