Saga TC-10 (Tele style) build

[andy__woods]

Well, after seeing the Grizzley kit thread, and the sheer coincidence that my parents got me a Saga kit for my birthday, I decided I'd put together a thread of my build (or assembly) as well. This is my 3rd Saga kit, and I actually only finished my last one (LC-10) about 2 months ago. But, I'll just dive into the thing.

Here is the kit after opening it all up:


I started fitting everything together, so here is a picture. Take note of the bridge:


I ordered up some new tuners last week, and started fitting them. I ordered the Gotoh vintage style tuners from Stew-Mac:



The bushings were a little big, so I'll have to enlarge that side of the hole. One of the nice things about these is that they actually cover up the tuner holes for the stock tuners. I'll be able to fill them and not worry about having ugly fill marks.

[andy__woods]

Ok, so I mentioned in the first post to take note of the stock bridge. I mentioned that because I remembered that I had a leftover MIM standard bridge plate that wasn't doing anything. I decided I'd try and learn a little more about the whole guitar building process, and tonite worked on converting the stock bridge to the MIM.

Here are the two side by side:


As you can see, there are a few issues. One, the stock bridge only has 3 screw holes, and also, none of the holes line up. So, the first thing I had to do was try and line up the new bridge. Here's the whole way I tried to get it all square and lined up:


Here it is after I took the plunge and put a couple screws in:



Next up......string-thru?

[andy__woods]

I wanted to continue to stretch and learn, so I plucked up some extra courage, and took on the string-thru holes. I don't have a drill press, or any sort of templates or guides, so all of this was with Dremel and a regular power drill. First I went in as far as I could with the smallest bit I could find (the only one that fit into the string-thru holes in the bridge) with the Dremel drill. The bit was so small, it didn't go all the way through the body, and barely made it halfway.

Once I got the beginnings of the holes, I got a slightly larger bit, and went all the way through the body on the 2 outside holes. Once I did this, I flipped the body over, and lined up the bridge plate with the two outside holes. I took out the dremel again and went through as far as I could, having lined things up with the bridge. Went through everything really slow to try and reduce the chance of screwup.

Here is the front after all the holes were drilled. I had the 3 extra bridge holes, so those had to be filled:


Here is a look at the back. I'm very happy with how well the holes are lined up. I don't have any ferrules yet, so thats why I didn't expand the holes at all:



And last, here's just a shot with the new bridge all set up and screwed down:




Things are moving pretty smoothly!

[FirstBassman]

Andy,
Very cool, can't wait to see more.
I've thought about getting a Saga kit for quite a while.

There's a guy who did a similar photo-by-photo layout on building a Stew-Mac (or Martin?) acoustic kit. He said it took him over a year to do it. That scared me right off.
But an electric, maybe I could handle that.

[andy__woods]

yeah, I think the most I spent on one of these was 3 months, but most of that is waiting for paint and clear coat to dry. I also do all this stuff at my parents house, which is a half hour from where I live, so I only get to work a couple hours a week. I wouldn't dare try to build an acoustic though, not near skilled enough, but maybe in a few years

[Dogbear]

Andy, how thick is the body?

[anfontan]

Originally Posted by andy__woods

yeah, I think the most I spent on one of these was 3 months, but most of that is waiting for paint and clear coat to dry. I also do all this stuff at my parents house, which is a half hour from where I live, so I only get to work a couple hours a week. I wouldn't dare try to build an acoustic though, not near skilled enough, but maybe in a few years

The Saga kits are easy and fun, I've put together a couple myself, best part is that all the holes are pre-drilled and the neck is matched to the body for a close match. The first kit I took my time on and the second I gave a clear laquer finish and was done over the weekend.

Here are some pictures that I took when I drilled my Teles for string through body, the drill bits I used for the ferrules, and for the bridge holes too--




I didn't have a better picture of my first Saga kit on this computer so I had to edit it out of several hanging on the wall.

[andy__woods]

Got some work done this past week. As I said earlier, I'm making this a string-thru, and here's the final drilled out ferrule holes:


Turned out pretty straight, so thats good. Next, I sanded down the body and threw it up for some paint. First was the primer. Sprayed a nice full coat, and then sanded it once dry:


Then I found the color that I was looking for......




It's copper! and I like it

[andy__woods]

Next I just need to decide, white or black?

[Jelly]

Nice color! I like the white pickguard with it but that's personal taste.

[crowden]

Photo logs like this that people post here are so cool. I learned a lot from the "Buttercaster" thread and was so captivated I just couldn't stop reading it all the way through. It was the main reason I turned from just lurking here to take the plunge and registering.

Gotta question for ya Andy, what brand of paint is that copper and where did you find it? I'm been thinking of doing a kit build down the road since I found this eBay seller that has them in ash with a top binding. A "Coppercaster" sounds right in order for it.

Oh, by the way, although I do have a drill press, it's not big enough to do string-thru holes. So what I have used is one of these Craftsman Drill Guides and the "two outside hole method" you mentioned although I use a pen vice to get my starter holes instead of a Dremel.

If you don't have a drill press or even the room to set one up these make a good alternative. You can find these drill guide thingies at Home Depot, Lowes etc but I would advise against them because they aren't on par with the Craftsmans. You can set them to drill on angles and they make drilling accuate holes in pipe a snap (I've made a few PVC flutes and a PVC "clarinet").

Can't wait to see how this tuns out for ya... good luck!

[andy__woods]

Originally Posted by crowden

Gotta question for ya Andy, what brand of paint is that copper and where did you find it? I'm been thinking of doing a kit build down the road since I found this eBay seller that has them in ash with a top binding. A "Coppercaster" sounds right in order for it.

Yeah, I found the paint at the Wal-Mart where I live. Here is a picture of it:


I haven't run into any real problems with that paint and the Deft, at least not yet. There were a few issues, but I would attribute those to user error. Those are nice looking kits though!

[crowden]

Originally Posted by andy__woods

Yeah, I found the paint at the Wal-Mart where I live.

Well, DANG! No wonder I haven't been able to find it, I've been searching all the expensive places

Thanks Andy.

[andy__woods]

well, it seems that the Krylon "Outdoor Spaces" copper paint and the Deft just aren't getting along. I'm thinking it can be a number of things, but I'm going to let it dry out for the week before I go at it again. Kinda upset about it, but I was probably rushing through it a bit. But just as an FYI, not sure if the Outdoor Krylon and Deft are totally compatible

[Jack Wells]

Andy ............ what are the symptoms?

[andy__woods]

well, its not orange peel or any of the normal problems. It kinda looks like an old picnic table, that was painted 20 years ago and has been sitting outside the whole time. It's a crackling sort of look, kind of like this:



I should've taken one of the guitar before I left, but forgot. My only assumption is that there was some moisture in the paint and I didn't give it time to dry properly. But any tips would be awesome. I love the copper color, and I love the Deft, so I want to use them together!

[Jack Wells]

I've used regular Krylon and Deft on several guitars and have never had a problem. I'm no chemist but I was checking the MSDS for regular Krylon and Outdoor Spaces Krylon. The Outdoor Spaces has a couple of ingredients not found in regular Krylon ...... namely xylene and methyl isobutyl ketone. I have no idea what those ingredients do to the paint.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. That was a nice color.

[andy__woods]

yeah, I'm hoping it is just user error and that they will still work together. we'll see

[Jack Wells]

Do some tests on scrap wood. That looks like an incompatability problem to me. I've sprayed Deft over Krylon when the Krylon was barely dry without problems.

One test you might try is to spray some polyurethane over the copper, allow it to cure then spray Deft. Seems like I recently read something like that from reddogbass. He's the one who could probably tell you what the problem is.

[FirstBassman]

Oh crap, Andy.

I hope it works out.

[Jack Wells]

I'm thinking that Outside Spaces Krylon may be an enamel.

Here's that post by reddogbass.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/1191992-post3.html

[andy__woods]

thanks for the link Jack, I'll definitely give that a shot (or spray?)

Because I have the pictures, here is the body (pre-ruin) with some hardware. The bridge is just the "traditional vintage style" from Stew-Mac:






I like the look, so I'll put more care into the next attempt at the finish. Thoughts though on which guard to use? Keep in mind that the neck has a rosewood board.

[BadHorsie]

Black guard all the way.

[crowden]

+ 1 on the black pickguard.

Bummer about the incompatibility with the Deft, that would really tick me off if I got to that stage and it crackled like that. I love the color though so I really hope the poly works.

[FirstBassman]

I'm a black-pickguard kind of guy but I gotta tell ya - both of 'em look real smart.
You can't go wrong either way.

[robbysturgis]

Originally Posted by FirstBassman

Andy,
Very cool, can't wait to see more.
I've thought about getting a Saga kit for quite a while.

There's a guy who did a similar photo-by-photo layout on building a Stew-Mac (or Martin?) acoustic kit. He said it took him over a year to do it. That scared me right off.
But an electric, maybe I could handle that.

I started with a Warmoth body - which I finished myself, and assembled other parts - MIM neck, Affinity pickup and controls, and a new vintage 3 barrel bridge assembly. .

It was fun, and very instructional - regarding the nature of guitars, and the nature of Robby Sturgis...haha.

[andy__woods]

any suggestions on a good poly clear?

[Jack Wells]

Minwax makes a spray poly. Probably as good as any.

[crowden]

Originally Posted by robbysturgis

... It was fun, and very instructional - regarding the nature of guitars, and the nature of Robby Sturgis...haha.

I know exactly what you mean. As a teen and in my 20's I modded the heck out of my first guitar - A Gibson "Kalamazoo" until it was a fire belching rocker (or so I remember... the reality may be a bit different) and built a strat from custom parts. But, then I got a '69 Thinline Tele and there was nothing that needed to be done to it so, all that came to an end.

I traded the thinline for a new Fender Precission Lyte and an amp in the mid 90's

The only kind of building I've done in the last 20 years has been primative instruments made from what ever kind of junk I could get a hold of for cheap or free. I've done a few of the instruments on Dennis Havlena's page like the cookie tin banjo (with toothpick frets) and turned him on to el-cheapo transducers.

One of my experiments was an attempt at a "rubber string bass" along the lines of the "Ashbory" but it was an utter failure because I tried to increase the scale length - which as I now know requires greater tension on the strings so the strings (nitril "o" ring material) kept breaking. So, I switched to weed whacker line. Here's a pic:



Oh yeah, it's a piece of work all right, but it's all hand carved (neck-thru) and about the only things that are pre-manufactured are the tuners. The "headstock" and the compinsating "bridge" are made from the bakalite salvaged from an old Hammond C3 organ someone was throwing out.

Does it play?.... sure, it's fretless. The fret markers are cut into the fretboard and filled with wood putty mixed with glow in the dark paint.

What's it sound like?... Crap. Mostly due to the bridge being of poor material and design for the transfer of sound and the very, very cheap transducers.

But that's not the point, it was an experiment and a learning thing. I learned even from the failure - about the instrument and about my self. It's cost me practically nothing in materials and the greatest expense was in tools, which is really what you need to build better instruments (that and a real long list of mistakes you never want to make again).

About the most sophisticated thing I've done from scratch so far is modeled after Wendell Powell's "A" Stick Dulcimer. Mine is bit different as I wanted a bigger body to rest my forearm on, a real banjo bridge and there's some solid hunks of wood in the body to accommodate string-thru ferrels so as to use guitar strings (not banjo strings) and to add some weight so it wasn't neck heavy. It's made of poplar for the neck and sides with a teak fretboard (an old boat rail) and birch plywood top (1/8") and back (1/4"). It really turned out quite well and it's got REAL FRETS! (sorry no pics 'cause my brother has it).

It sounds good and is easy to play, it's a lot of fun. Of coarse it cost me about $250 for a fretsaw\miterbox\fretscale template (25.5") and a fret press and flat caul but hey those are tools. I was even going to start making a couple a month and sell them in my front yard. (to help finance more tools) But then, my band saw decided to move on to the next life...

Then, a month latter (last Nov.), I bought a Squier Vintage Modified Telecaster... I was consumed...

Since then, I have gone from having only my bass and a junky old acoustic that I never played to owning 4 low end Telecasters, 3 which are in various stages of being modded - and I play every day!

Next up is a kit build and then, as soon as I get another band saw, I'm going to build something along the lines of a Fender TC-90 Thinline except solid body and without the Gibson saddle and tail piece (boo).

Don't ya just love this stuff!

[onelung]

I was thinking gold body......gold scratchplate? don't know if there is a precut gold tele scratchplate like the Strat one?

[andy__woods]

ok, well I mentioned a week or two ago that I was running into some finish problems. Here are a few pictures of the finish in question:






I sanded most of it off, and have already re-primed and painted. I'm letting it sit for a while, then I'll tackle it again.

[Gary in Boston]

That finish problem looks like a couple of things.

1) The clear coat is attacking the copper finish, almost like a paint stripper.

2) It also kinda looks like what happens to a paint finish when heat hits a finish Is it at all possible that the clear coat had a chemical reaction with the copper coat and produced heat and caused those fractures?

Riddle me that!

Gary

[crowden]

Man that is ugly. I mean, it's not even the type of ugly you could do purposely for an effect - it's just ugly.

Hope all goes well this time around.

[Jack Wells]

I hope you're doing a scrap test. I'd spray the primer and copper paint on a piece of 2 x 4. I'd mask off half of it and spray the other half with clear poly. Then I'd remove the masking and spray the whole thing with lacquer.

[andy__woods]

i'll make sure to do that Jack. I did get some Krylon clear-coat, so I'll test that on the scrap piece.

It sure was ugly though!

[reddogbass]

That "crazing" is the typical lacquer over enamel thing. Smell the two paints and you'll be able to tell the difference. This will be a good reference for future painting projects. You'll know the difference between the two- and they ain't compatible. You can do enamel over lacquer, but not the other way around.

So, what to do? As I've mentioned, I've had some good results using MinWax Poly to seal the enamel, so it can be top-coated with lacquer. It takes some time though. First, the poly spray won't go on without orange peel, and it is a bit harder to blocksand out. So... this is a suggestion.

I'd recommend waiting a week before applying the lacquer over the poly sealer. I've tried it in less, and a couple small spots of "crazing" were evident.

The rub-on will go on smoother, and the result should be the same. If you use spray, I'd do the "satin" if I were doing this again. It will go on smoother, and since you are using a lacquer top-coat for gloss...

When applying the poly don't try to achieve a wet, smooth coat. A couple of dry coats to seal it should do the trick, and it will be easier to get smooth before the application of the Deft. And, when applying the Deft, be sure that the first few coats are FAIRLY DRY! Let it sit for a day or so, scuff the tops off and start applying the final coats.

I would recommend you do the test on some scrap though, as your results may not be the same as mine. I may have gotten lucky!

I really think it is a major PITA, so I'll never again attempt to seal enamel for top-coating with lacquer.

At this stage I think I'd just bite the bullet and take it all the way back to the primer, and find a lacquer in the copper color. All of the Krylon colors that are lacquer are either clearly marked "lacquer," or the cans marked "indoor-outdoor" with the 5 balls on the label are lacquer.

There's a copper Krylon lacquer here: http://www.krylon.com/main/product_t...roduct_details

[Jack Wells]

Here a little tip for anyone painting a guitar. When reddogbass talks about painting, I pay attention ............. you should too.

[andy__woods]

ok. I let the guitar sit for a while, and decided to put it all together. Here are a couple pictures of my dad playing on it:





The neck turned out great. I'm really happy with everything about the neck, just need to do some fret-work on it and set it up properly. The finish though, is good. The lacquer had been sitting for a lot longer than the body, and it was very evident in the final result. Now I see why you're supposed to wait!

The body is pretty rough, but I wanted to get it together more than work on the finish. I'm thinking that when I get some more time in a few months I can work on it again. I'll try to get some soundclips or videos here soon

[andy__woods]

all right. It took some time to dial in the set-up, but she's playing pretty well! The finish is still pretty rough, and if you look closely at the pictures you can see some rough parts in the finish. Otherwise though, I'm very happy. Here it is alongside my first Saga kit, from about a year and a half ago. I like 'em both

[Jack Wells]

So Andy .............. how did you finally solve you crinkling paint problem?