maximum truss rod relief you'd recommend

[jivetrain]

i've been having buzzing problems with my guitars and didn't know what to attribute it to, since they were set up near fender's standards with the truss rods near .010mm. in order to make sure my guitars actually did have an abnormal amount of buzz and that i wasn't just becoming paranoid, i went to a local store and tried out as many different teles as i could and most played flawlessly without a trace of buzzing at all. i looked carefully at each guitar's setup to see what was different from my own and the obvious answer, in every case, was the truss rod; the guitars in the store had massive amounts of relief. too much, it seemed to me, but i couldn't argue with the results.

so i readjusted my guitars to have a .015mm relief and the buzz has been substantially reduced, but there still isn't as much relief as the teles i had been playing at GC. so my question (which didn't really need this long a setup) is just how much truss rod relief is considered healthy before you begin to go too far? the maximum amount i've heard recommended is .015mm, and i'm not too eager to adjust beyond that without knowing for sure it's ok

[Geschwader]

I think that the whole "relief" thing is a fallacy. For over 30 years I"ve kept all my guitars (acoustic and electric) dead flat down the fingerboard. They all play perfectly at whatever action I want with no buzzing whatsoever. Most people probably never have a correctly done, quality set-up, including fret dressing. Makes all this "relief" discussion go away.

[Bswailes]

Originally Posted by Geschwader

["...dead flat down the fingerboard. They all play perfectly at whatever action I want with no buzzing whatsoever. Most people probably never have a correctly done, quality set-up, including fret dressing. Makes all this "relief" discussion go away."]

Can't speak for all makes and models, but I agree with you re the Tele. A good setup is a must. (You right, you right!)

[Stevie 202]

The problem usualy lies with the nut and/or uneven frets and not neck relief, in my experience.

[guitarsrockman]

There is no magic number, the least relief without buzz.

A guitar setup is a circular process and all things effect others.

But here's a guide.

1. Set reasonable relief, just meaning it's in the ball park. Yours sounds reasonable now.

2. Set a reasonable string height at the 12th fret by lowering/raising at bridge. For an electric guitar try: low E .070" to high E .060" You want to see these lines under the string. (a string gauge helps here, but can use any metal ruler that shows 100s or 1000s of an inch. Stew-macs string gauge is nice:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/St...ion_Gauge.html

3. I will than set intonation close. (steps 1-3, you want everything in the ball park, before fine adjustments)

4. Now check relief again for each string. Hold down 1 fret with left hand. Place pinky of right hand on string at the 10 fret, and tap the string with pointer finger of right hand on 5th fret. You want as low as possible but still get a nice pinging sound. No strings should be touching the 5th fret. (You can move this process down the neck to other frets test all areas)

So adjust rod so the lowest string is just pinging.

Notice as you adjust truss rod, string height at the nut changes, that's why this will come after relief and string height are correct.

4. Check string height at the 12th fret again, and adjust.
5. Check relief again. Repeat until feels good.
6. Play each string on every fret, light, normal aggressive

Common Problems when checking each string on every fret.
* One or two high frets (or worse one low fret) Solution: 1. add relief and/or string height, 2. file fret and recrown (fret rocker is a nice tool), 3. do a complete filing and recrowning.
* Skateboard Ramp: As you check each string and get to some point, say 14th fret they all start buzzing. Solutions: 1. Don't play high notes, 2. add relief and/or string height, 3. file the frets on high notes and re crown 4. Refret guitar and sand out skateboard ramp with a radius block before new frets put in.
* Twisted neck: Solutions; get a new neck.

7. Once relief and string height are set, check string height at nut. Nut height, like relief, does not have a certain measurement above first fret. But a good starting point is about .020" above first fret to as low as .010. The wound strings should have a little more than the plain strings, just like the string height at the 12th fret does. Guitar stores always have nut set high, because they fear buzz will kill a sale. So once you decide to lower a string, loosen the string, move string to another slot and deepen nut slot with nut file (feeler gauges are helpful hear, stack them to fret height plus .020" don't go to deep or you will need a new nut). If you go slow and recheck nut height often, which is time consuming, (meaning put string back in slot and bring up to tune) you won't go to deep. The feeler gauges can give a false sense of certainty, because quite often one corner of the fret board is lower than the other (this happens during the radiusing process and like all sanding the edges often get over sanded). So if you go slow, check height often you should be fine. (It's a circular process, so you can check relief and String height again)

8. Lastly, fine tune intonation.

[mellecaster]

Agreed....Many factors can come into play...Nut slot depth....level frets..neck angle...saddle height...string gauge....playing style....all must be taken into account....any many times a Dead Flat neck, can play buzz free....then there is the whole amplified or unamplified factor.....some folks gotta just get over this Acoustic evaluation thing, that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so...it is an ELECTRIC Guitar.....some that Buzz on the couch...won't thru an Amp...but that fact has somehow been swept aside, in recent years...not sure why ??...but it has.

[jivetrain]

i've had my guitars fully set up and the frets have been filed and approved by a few different techs, the action is just where it should be, ect. yet i still get abhorrent buzz with the truss rod set anywhere near straight. none of the local professionals have been any help in addressing why the buzz is still there and i've gotten tired of thinking about it, so if giving the truss rod relief solves it that's fine with me. i was just wondering how far is too far

[bradpdx]

Most luthiers I know like to see a small amount of relief, and I do too.

For my guitars, that means that if I hold down a string at the 1st and 15th frets, I can see a small gap between the strings and the 6th fret. As per C.F. Martin's guidelines, this gap is usually about "one business card", or about 0.010".

I find that a bit of relief really helps the guitar to play evenly from top to bottom, as long as the nut and saddles are set correctly.

[charlie chitlin]

.015mm is one-and-a-half hundredths of a mm.
That's something like .0006" (6 ten-thousandths of an inch).
I have no idea how you'd measure that.
.010"-.015" is fine.
Make sure you fret the first fret and whatever fret is where the neck joins the body and masure in the middle.

[Flat357]

Originally Posted by mellecaster

Agreed....Many factors can come into play...Nut slot depth....level frets..neck angle...saddle height...string gauge....playing style....all must be taken into account....any many times a Dead Flat neck, can play buzz free....then there is the whole amplified or unamplified factor.....some folks gotta just get over this Acoustic evaluation thing, that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so...it is an ELECTRIC Guitar.....some that Buzz on the couch...won't thru an Amp...but that fact has somehow been swept aside, in recent years...not sure why ??...but it has.

Yep .

Even pickup height can affect the situation .
Nearly all guitars , even the best ones , have some buzz .

[<jbc>]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

yet i still get abhorrent buzz with the truss rod set anywhere near straight.

Hi Jivetrain.

I want to concur with everything guitarsrockman said in his post.

I didn't see what gauge strings you play, but thicker strings will require more relief to play clean.

The foolproof way to check fretbuzz is with an ohmmeter, or conductivity test light and a capo. Ground the tester to the bridge and probe the frets for the one that is shorting out.

I've had bad luck with a neck that was very slightly twisted, so slight that is was almost imperceptible by sighting from nut to bridge. With the strings off the frets should appear to be like perfectly aligned railroad ties, and by changing the viewing angle you should be see perfectly uniform fretboard between the frets. That is at a narrow viewing angle, the last viewable patch of fretboard should be quite close to your point of view, then as you increase the view angle that patch will move further and further down the neck.

You may be able to fix twist with heat.

I play .011-.052s with about .015 relief, and about .070 string height at the 17th fret when capo'd at the first. With lighter strings you can get away with less relief.

Also don't forget to check your nut. And there are other things that can buzz that aren't frets.

Good luck.

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by <jbc>

Hi Jivetrain.

I want to concur with everything guitarsrockman said in his post.

I didn't see what gauge strings you play, but thicker strings will require more relief to play clean


I play .011-.052s with about .015 relief, and about .070 string height at the 17th fret when capo'd at the first. With lighter strings you can get away with less relief.

Good luck.

yes! that's just what i've been thinking; everyone is under the impression that heavier strings decrease buzz since they're under more tension and don't move as easily, but i figured that they still did increase buzzing since they're larger in size and more likely to contact the frets, increased tension or not. i never had problems with the buzz when i used the stock 9's, only when i switched to 10's, and i've contemplated going back to see if it solved the buzz but they're just too damned flimsy. maybe i'll try a .095 set... thanks for the advice

[reddogbass]

.010mm is no relief at all relatively speaking. It amounts to .0004" (mm x .03937 = inches). In your case that's almost a dead flat neck.

On the other hand flat necks can be set up to play without buzz. Personally I don't like using truss rod adjustments to eliminate buzz.

There are a lot of good suggestions here. A good setup is the place to start. To me the truss rod is there to keep things in order as the neck moves around due to conditions. It is not there to set action.

[Mark Davis]

If you set the neck totally flat without any strings on it and string it up with 46-10 it will usually have about the right relief which for me is arouind the same size as my b string .012-.014.

It is a combination of several different things.

I always start @ the nut 99% of new guitars dont have the nut cut correctly.

Get the nut cut correctly and set the relief intonation and saddles and as long as all your frets are level and the neck isnt twisted it should play clean.

[guitarsrockman]

I agree with everyone who says, start with a flat neck (before strings on), but you need a scaled notched straight edge to determine this, such as this one from stew-mac or make one with a 24" rigid ruler (cut off extra) and notch it with a Dremel tool (which I did, ugly but works).

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/St...ight_Edge.html

Jivetrain, using heavier strings can remove buzz, because they will add more relief due to tension. While the strings are bigger and need more room to vibrate, the added tension of the strings will sometimes be enough to give the strings room to vibrate and a little extra (relief), hence removed buzz.

One can solve relief problems by testing different strings gauges and never have to fiddle with the truss rod.

Are all reliefs equal? Does natural relief (from string tension) vs. forced relief from truss rod pressure, create a different type shape or bow in the neck? I had never really thought about it before, but guitars that need the truss rod monkeyed with a lot never seem to sound as good (could be a false perception). But if true, than we should put what ever gauge strings work best, and if the gauge is not for you, sell it. Just a crazy thought.