Anybody finned an ash body w/o grain filler?

[boris bubbanov]

I'm finishing three virgin Tele swamp ash bodies, and I guess I'm grasping for short cuts. Tell me what you think. I'm practicing on red oak 'cause I have no scrap ash.
First, let me know if ya'll have completed an ash body transparent or semi-trans without grain filler; two which finish, spray shellac or spray nitro, would A) Fill the pores the fastest and B) Would make a good base on which to begin applying the grain filler?

I'm looking at these pieces of red oak and the pores are still there, even tho one sample has four generous coats of Zinsser clear on it. Thinking about bypassing the shellac and going for a whiter blonde net result with the clearer nitro.

Much obliged

Bubbanov

[martino]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

I'm finishing three virgin Tele swamp ash bodies, and I guess I'm grasping for short cuts. Tell me what you think. I'm practicing on red oak 'cause I have no scrap ash.
First, let me know if ya'll have completed an ash body transparent or semi-trans without grain filler; two which finish, spray shellac or spray nitro, would A) Fill the pores the fastest and B) Would make a good base on which to begin applying the grain filler?

I'm looking at these pieces of red oak and the pores are still there, even tho one sample has four generous coats of Zinsser clear on it. Thinking about bypassing the shellac and going for a whiter blonde net result with the clearer nitro.

Much obliged

Bubbanov

Zinsser clear? clear what?
Ok I hear the panic in your voice . . . deep breth ok.
Do all 3 ash bodys have to mach?

Some simlpe ancers for you first I never finished a ash guitar loads
of ash molding, doors, cabinets, ect,




This is a simple fast high end finish = grasping for short cuts?

http://www.lawrence-mcfadden.com/miv...tegory_Code=GS

Look who uses lawrence-mcfadden ! ! ! !

http://www.lawrence-mcfadden.com/musiccust.php

in sunny hot dry drys in LA nitro takes 5 days of cure time per coat
No "short cuts" with nitro

All projects start at the end? what are you going for light blond?
clear? do you have a photo of what you like in an ash guitar.

Hope this was some help.
good luck!

[Rich Rice]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

I'm finishing three virgin Tele swamp ash bodies, and I guess I'm grasping for short cuts. Tell me what you think. I'm practicing on red oak 'cause I have no scrap ash.
First, let me know if ya'll have completed an ash body transparent or semi-trans without grain filler; two which finish, spray shellac or spray nitro, would A) Fill the pores the fastest and B) Would make a good base on which to begin applying the grain filler?

I'm looking at these pieces of red oak and the pores are still there, even tho one sample has four generous coats of Zinsser clear on it. Thinking about bypassing the shellac and going for a whiter blonde net result with the clearer nitro.

Much obliged

Bubbanov

First off, oak is lots easier to fill than ash. I do tons of ash bodies without filler, as I don't care for "surfboard" finishes. Filler IS your shortcut, as filling with lacquer requires many, many coats- most of which will be sanded off. This is a very time consuming, labor intensive process. A wash coat of Deft sanding sealer will provide an excellent base to start with, then a high quality paste filler can be applied. The filler will be one or two applications, the lacquer method will be closer to 20 coats. Shellac will vary depending on if you try to use pre-made shellac, or if you use flakes and make your own. Home made shellac will act considerably different, as it won't contain additives to keep it viable in a can for long periods of time, and you can control the recipe to achieve the balance that fits your requirements. A word of caution regarding shellac- the pre-made stuff dries to the touch quickly, but it remains soft for weeks or months, and can be easily damaged by leaving a strap across the face of your instrument, leaving it in a case or gig bag, or on a rubber lined stand. I've even ruined finishes after curing for a month, by leaving the guitar lying on the carpet overnight. Nothing sucks more than refinishing a guitar that you just finished finishing.

As far as spraying the shellac, you would be better off getting some flakes, making your own, and using a Preval sprayer (a compressor/spray gun is even better) to apply it. At least it will be fresh, and you control the viscosity. Avoid windy or humid conditions, and extreme temperatures.

[Jellecaster]

The first ash body I did was very frustrating because I used the Stew Mac grain filler and it sucks. So, with the help of Buckocaster51, I think I've found a fairly quick and easy way to fill grain.

Get a can of Deft brush on sanding sealer (as Rich said) and a can of McFadden's natural color pore filler (click). Apply two thick coats of sanding sealer with a foam brush allowing the first coat to dry for at least twenty minutes and allow the second coat to dry overnight. Sand the body completely smooth with 400 grit sandpaper - there will be a TON of white dust. Mix a "gob" of pore filler with naptha in a bowl into a paste consistency and use a rag to "grind" it into the body, completely covering it. Wait about fifteen minutes and wipe it all off across the grain with a coarse rag (like burlap). Let it sit overnight. Pore filling is VERY messy.

The next day you can start the whole process over again. After two cycles of sanding sealer and pore filler you should be pretty close but might need one more. The entire process takes me about a week and I have had very good results.

[boris bubbanov]

Thanks, rich and jellecaster, great and reassuring guidance.

What I have already done on an alder body is to spray a little of the Zinsser clear shellac on the sanded body, let it soak a few moments, then wipe the excess off with denatured alcohol. I don't have ventilation today, so nitro is out for today. Surprised to feel 'fuzz' on the surface to be sanded off, I'll use Behkol next time.
I think I'll go with the recommended sanding sealer on the remaining bodies, and give pure nitro a try on the first ash. I'm real comfortable with using spray nitro over reshaped maple necks, and I must say there is something about the way nitro looks and feels, not sure I want anything between it and the wood I'm finishing.
If it proves too laborious, I'll switch over to grain filler on the remaining ash bodies.

Again thanks to all for your replies.

Bubbanov


here's that troublemaker ash body with 2 coats of nitro, to be sanded way down next week or later, then resprayed.

[boris bubbanov]

When I read your post at first, I wasn't sure what to think.
I'm not panicking, am I? Did I really seem so unsure?

Well, maybe I was, but I shouldn't have been. That shellac does fill any void you're likely to have on the alder (maybe nitro would too, but I couldn't use it or acetone at that point for ventilation reasons).
Well I got that ethanol washed shellac all dried and sanded 240,320,400,600 ( I also had detailed the flat area around the jack rout to make it rounder ). Tons of time on the horn and neck pocket area, out of respect for nature and everybody who made this body happen.
And I set my ventilation system up upstairs away from the dust, and got two real pretty coats of Deft gloss rattle can nitro clear on there. Very impressed with myself, all the sudden.

So thanks, Martino, for coaching the goof back to life. Panicking? Not any more, thanks to all.

This by the way is a close grained heartwood one piece alder body from Tommy at USA Custom Guitars. This is the heavier of the two, Tommy. Thank you sir, one fantastic piece of wood made into a primo cut shaped and sanded body. I dunno how the second one could be prettier than this!

Gonna go find some Deft sanding sealer for the ash and some more filters for my mask.

Bubbanov

[martino]

So thanks, Martino, for coaching the goof back to life. Panicking? Not any more, thanks to all.

This by the way is a close grained heartwood one piece alder body from Tommy at USA Custom Guitars. This is the heavier of the two, Tommy. Thank you sir, one fantastic piece of wood made into a primo cut shaped and sanded body. I dunno how the second one could be prettier than this!

Gonna go find some Deft sanding sealer for the ash and some more filters for my mask.

Bubbanov[/quote]

No problem I thought you would be fine.

Did you order from USA Custom Guitars or get one of there killer
WEB SPECIALS ?
Looking foward to photos of this project!

[boris bubbanov]

Got 4 Tele and one hardtail strat body from the webpage, two separate orders about a week apart, the last two due here Monday. Two ash, 3 alder.
I had just bought a Warmoth webpage body a few days earlier, not a bad deal, then these wonderful bodies at prices I don't remember seeing lately began popping up, I called right away, missed some of the ones I was shooting sat but Tommy made everything great by taking a couple bucks off these one piecers.

Here's what the heavier of the two one piece alder bodies looks like with four good coats of rattle can Deft clear gloss nitro:



Looks like the alder ones will be done way first.

Bubbanov

I have taken some of the flat spot for the jack cup away with a lil rounding, very satisfied with all the routs; callaham bridge plate shows zero rout or what I call butt-crack. Bridge plate and drill thru holes real nice, great neck pocket.

[0le FUZZY]

...Yep but tie used clear Poly.


0.F.

[boris bubbanov]

I have done my share in poly, Ol Fuzzy.

Lots and lots of white oak flooring, some ash cabinetry, looked fantastic til Katrina messed with it.

When I told my Dad I was using a shellac wash he says, "what is the matter with you son, shellac is hopeless stuff, if moisture within the guitar reaches it, it'll turn white." I told him it was basically all down in the pores, but I think he still disapproves. A lot.

This fine alder body has six coats now:



The 4.0 pound ash three piecer has been sanded 240-320-400-600 after the flat area by the jack cup was rounded some, and a thorough coat has been applied in clear nitro. Expect to sand it virtually all off, then respray, etc., til I have the pores pretty well filled. A little sinking later on will not bother me. May very well burst around the sides of the guitar with a blonde semi-trans Mohawk tinted nitro, to disguise the 3 piece end seams, but they really do look proper as they are. Pale blonde ash, not that oak color of the 72 Thinline Reissue.


Bubbanov

The ash is four pounds, one ounce, $ 99.



Here's the second one piece alder USACG body, 4 pounds 12 ounces.

[boris bubbanov]

4.25 pound 2 piece swamp ash, same shellac wash 240-320-400-600 sand, and about three coats spray Deft nitro.
The idea is in ten days to sand back towards the wood then respray, and fill the grain with nitro as per Rich's guidance.




Bubbanov

[Vizcaster]

Boris, when you say Zinsser "clear" I hope you're referring to "sealcoat" and not just their "blonde" shellac. The "Sealcoat" is dewaxed and is a great sealer or barrier coat for all types of finishing applications. However, their "blonde" shellac is not necessarily dewaxed and the newest labels say it's not appropriate as a sealer under polyurethane varnish. Unfortunately I have yet to run into a paint store salesperson (not to mention the big box stores) who know the difference; most just try to sell me BIN pigmented shellac when I ask for "Seal coat." It's a good prestain conditioner and a good sealer or barrier coat, but you can't really build very much with it, for that I'd turn to a polyester or vinyl sealer. And ditto on the advice of a grain filler being the shortcut for a tight finish.

[boris bubbanov]

Vizcaster, this is a yellow label 12 ounce spray can, Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac.
On the back of this can it says "is 100 % wax-free, it can be used as a sealer under polyurethane and other finishes".
I agree, any waxed shellac would not be a good choice, as the wax would act as a release for any coating applied over it, that could be a disaster.
For speed of drying and to drive the product into the pores and wood, I soaked a clean cloth with denatured ethanol and washed the surface a minute of so after each application. In resanding within 24 hours, I 'wasted' some 1/4 sheets of sandpaper, 150 for the area around the jack on the USACG bodies, then 220, 320, 400 and 600, as they got slightly clogged after half a body. But these sheets were left over used ones I'd lost the intial tooth off of tadeo-ing a whole bunch of maple necks, I mean 6 one quarter sheets of sandpaper 100-600 per maple neck. Funny how a sheet that stops cutting fast enough through maple works fine on shellac film over alder or ash.



Warmoth, least pretty of the 4 bodies in my possession yet.

Bubbanov

This may be the long way 'round, but if in the future some of these ash Tele bodies or the alder Strat hardtail body don't impress me in clear nitro, I'll use some of this tinted Mohawk nitro and do some pale color tints.

[Buckocaster51]

Now I know who my competition for the USACG Web Special bodies has been!

They are looking GOOD!

I have 6 alder bodies in the garage that I am grain filling with DEFT sanding/sealer. It works...but it takes FOREVER. It does appeal to the skinflint in me.

[Lostheart]

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Now I know who my competition for the USACG Web Special bodies has been!

They are looking GOOD!

I have 6 alder bodies in the garage that I am grain filling with DEFT sanding/sealer. It works...but it takes FOREVER. It does appeal to the skinflint in me.

Sorry for asking this, but...do alder bodies need to be grain filled???
From what I've heard alder is one of the very few body woods that can be sprayed without the tedious process of filling the grain?!?!

[tonewoods]

"This by the way is a close grained heartwood one piece alder body from Tommy at USA Custom Guitars. This is the heavier of the two, Tommy. Thank you sir, one fantastic piece of wood made into a primo cut shaped and sanded body. I dunno how the second one could be prettier than this!"

Man, I'm glad those one-piecers went to a good home...
I was eye-balling those for quite some time....

"...and a can of McFadden's natural color pore filler..."

Does anyone know of a source for McFadden's other than LMI? (Long story).

Or a pore filler that works equally as well??

Thanks!

[1293]

Originally Posted by tonewoods

[i]

Does anyone know of a source for McFadden's other than LMI? (Long story).

Or a pore filler that works equally as well??

Thanks!

I haven't used McFadden's, but Bartley's works great.

[boris bubbanov]

Well. I just purchased three more USA CG Tele ash bodies, so I may break down and get some Bartley's, had heard a lot of great things about it. I apologize Steve, if it looks like I'm hoggin the supply, but if USACG needs to move these things out, I volunteer to buy 'em. Two 3 piece swamp ash tele bodies, and a swamp ash thinline with Australian rip sawn oak cap, 69 thinline style, under $ 350 shipped and insured all 3 bodies total. Thanks, Rob.

I bought 'em in part because the two Rob helped me pick out the other week are excellent as well. First, a 5 pound five ounce 3 piece ash Tele, beautiful and even less $ than the first USACG ash, which may get tummy cut and forearm cut to do away with 5 ounces or so. Second, a 3 piece alder strat hardtail, 4 pounds, that is more in appearance what alder usually looks like, and which will be semi-trans to opaque in finish color. Gets G + L Alnico V Legacy pickups, my Robert Cray-gacy.

The alder bodies can have small fissures but I believe Tommy already addressed that issue with a bit of end grain filling on the 2 heartwood one piecers. The shellac spray certainly soaked freely into the end grain on the alder, and the ethanol was used to clear away any excess so there was just a minimal film. No grain sealer needed, the nitro built a little more slowly in the end grain areas than in the fields, but the wood is gorgeous and built finish very beautifully.

Not one of these bodies I've received is what I'd call a second or blem.
I know many of ya'll have been building a long time and some may recall paying a lot less than the Warmoth/ Guitar Mill/ Stratosphere stated rate.
But when you compare the chore of refinishing a non-nitro guitar body with buying a fine new one and finishing it just so, the USACG price seems very cost effective. Well below the rate I described above of $175 per body into the customers hands for a bread and butter model.
The first four have gone so smooth so far, figured I'd do another 4-5, why not?


Bubbanov

Buckocaster, you mean ash bodies, don't you? BTW, your tutorial is great, just went back over all it again last night, should've done so before I posted this topic, actually. Thanks.

[boris bubbanov]

I've got a shellac/ethanol wash coat on the 5 lb 5 oz 3 piece Tele body and the 4 pound 3 piece Strat alder hardtail, and couple more clear nitro coats on the second one piece alder Tele body. the first one is all set, just needs to dry so I may polish, no sanding seems required.
There's some reading of the pores on the alder even with 8 coats on it; a coat is relative, and of course what you see will offgas half its mass as it dries.
The 3 piece alder Strat has more character than first thought. May do a blonde burst sort of finish, but I have this honey orange color I'd like to try on a Strat also.
Does anyone know why a pale blonde clearcoat Ash body seems to be such an unpopular finish? Looks great to me, guess it doesn't matter as long as my eye is satisfied.
Guess that's why I'm a whitewater kayaker and not a rubber rafter. If somebody else makes all your choices on a guitar, then it isn't really personally yours.

Bubbanov

[superV]

I wish there was a shortcut.

I like Ash when its all done. I dislike having to finish it for this very reason - the filling process is soooo long.

[boris bubbanov]

I've been using Bartley's exclusively for several months now. More of a traditional oil based product, I mix a small portion of the Light with a far more substantial portion of the clear or neutral Bartley's. Maybe a one to eight parts ratio. And I really use burlap to get the excess off. On Mahogany, the same thing. What's more; I do the whole body even if the top or cap is maple, redwood, what have you, to harmonize the hue of the guitar.

Same thing for the exposed holes at the end of the fret cuts on Allparts necks. The USACGs are either already done, or more likely, their fret cuts are more perfectly calibrated to match the depth of the fret tang. The Allparts gang slot cuts imagine a hudigenous tang/ or an assumption that the metal in the fret tang with expand 50 percent if heated. That's why the Allparts are cheaper; it is a kit. A high quality kit, but a kit as compared to the USACG product.