Highway 1 finish - acrylic lacquer same as nitro?

[appar111]

I checked Fender's website today for some specs on the Highway 1 tele, and I was always under the impression that the finish is nitro. But the website lists the finish as "acrylic lacquer".

That's not the same thing as nitro, is it? If not, how does acrylic lacquer differ from nitrocellulose lacquer?

[jwells393]

The specs for the Highway One Texas Telecaster say acrylic lacquer. The specs for the Highway One Telecaster say nitrocellulose. Who knows?

Found this:

Nitrocellulose lacquers

Quick-drying solvent-based lacquers that contain nitrocellulose, a resin obtained from the nitration of cotton and other cellulostic materials, were developed in the early 1920s, and extensively used in the automobile industry for 30 years. Prior to their introduction, mass produced automotive finishes were limited in colour, with Japan Black being the fastest drying and thus most popular. General Motors Oakland automobile brand automobile was the first (1923) to introduce one of the new fast drying nitrocelluous lacquers, a bright blue, produced by DuPont under their Duco tradename.

These lacquers are also used on wooden products, furniture primarily, and on musical instruments and other objects. The nitrocellulose and other resins and plasticizers are dissolved in the solvent, and each coat of lacquer dissolves some of the previous coat. These lacquers were a huge improvement over earlier automobile and furniture finishes, both in ease of application, and in colour retention. The preferred method of applying quick-drying lacquers is by spraying, and the development of nitrocellulose lacquers led to the first extensive use of spray guns. Nitrocellulose lacquers produce a very hard yet flexible, durable finish that can be polished to a high sheen. Drawbacks of these lacquers include the hazardous nature of the solvent, which is flammable, volatile and toxic; and the handling hazards of nitrocellulose in the lacquer manufacturing process. Lacquer grade or soluble nitrocellulose is closely related to the more highly nitrated form which is used to make explosives.

Acrylic lacquers

Lacquers using acrylic resin, a synthetic polymer, were developed in the 1950s. Acrylic resin is colourless, transparent thermoplastic, obtained by the polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acid. Acrylic is also used in enamels, which have the advantage of not needing to be buffed to obtain a shine. Enamels, however, are slow drying. The advantage of acrylic lacquers, which was recognized by General Motors, is an exceptionally fast drying time. The use of lacquers in automobile finishes was discontinued when tougher, more durable, weather and chemical resistant two-component polyurethane coatings were developed. The system usually consists of a primer, colour coat and clear topcoat, commonly known as clear coat finishes. It is extensively used for wooden finishing

[mellecaster]

Good info Jack...as Ron Kirn has stated before, this whole mis-conception of what is now called Nitro by some un-named Guitar Companies....is just not True....it's just one of the many words Today, that is terribly misused...IMO

[Valvey]

As I recall, the Texas H1 tele bodies are made of ash, a more attractive wood than the regular H1's alder and so they use a more transparent finish on em.

[Dacious]

A lot of people are under the misapprehension that all old (pre-CBS) fenders were finished in nitro. Most custom colours, including Olympic White, Sonic Blue and most metallic colours are acryllic lacquer, because that is what car companies were using by the early sixties. Nitro fades and cracks.

Aryllic does not because it is more stable but still easy to prepare and paint, and as it uses the same lacquers can go over or under nitro. Some early sixties custom colours age and yellow due to a nitro topcoat, but even that was done away with by the mid-sixties. Any solid non-metallic colours from about '62-63 on will be all acryllic.

Fender has always used an inert, non-lacquer sealer on all its' bodies, ash or alder.

[Sleph]

I bought a Highway One Telecaster body off Ebay and when it arrived I could smell the nitrocellulose, but I was told by a tech that the colour stain is acrylic based and only the clear coat is nitro.

[Mark Davis]

Originally Posted by Sleph

I bought a Highway One Telecaster body off Ebay and when it arrived I could smell the nitrocellulose, but I was told by a tech that the colour stain is acrylic based and only the clear coat is nitro.

You got a good tech thats 100% correct.

[appar111]

I noticed the smell when I got my Hwy 1 tele body off ebay too--- sort of a sweet smell.

So it's the color stain that's acrylic based, and just the clear coat that's nitro? There doesn't seem to be much of a clear coat on it, but I think it just seems that way because it's a satin finish.

[boris bubbanov]

It is almost a pineapple smell, reminds me of the esters we were permitted to fool with in chemistry class.
So does anyone here adhere to the notion that acrylic and nitro lacquers should not be used on the same body? If we can use acrylic lacquers as our base color on these bodies, that gives us a lot more sources to choose from.
Perhaps a nitro top coat would not dissolve into a previous layer of acrylic.
Seems unlikely it would be less desirable than nitro over enamel or poly, anyone have an idea?

Bubbanov

[GTO]

Aryllic does not because it is more stable but still easy to prepare and paint, and as it uses the same lacquers can go over or under nitro.

Acrylic and nitro can be considered in very general vintage usage terms to 'be the same' because they both share/shared a common thinning agent, acetone. This is why they can be confused technically, but in terms of putting the paint on, it doesn't really matter which is which. So acrylic can go over or under nitro and visa versa if they are the common auto sourced paints. But, some modern acrylic's are water based and these may be a problem. The easy way to test is to put some acetone (nail varnish remover) in a pup route and if it melts the current paint it is 'OK', if it wrinkles the paint it isn't.

[boris bubbanov]

Great test, GTO. That explains why when my buddy tried to overspray a pickguard with nitro, he got wrinkly disaster. The mystery paint base color was water based acrylic, I hear ya.

Bubbanov

[Gary in Boston]

I swear Nitro... real nitrocellulous laquer could be sprayed over anythng. I have seen it sprayed over old luggage in fact I think Fender use to spray their cases and tweed amps. Didn't they?

Gary

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by Gary in Boston

I swear Nitro... real nitrocellulous laquer could be sprayed over anythng. I have seen it sprayed over old luggage in fact I think Fender use to spray their cases and tweed amps. Didn't they?

Gary

Well no...that's just not true...I think you have it backwards...you can spray almost anything OVER Lacquer.....but you have to do the test GTO mentioned, before you spray Lacquer over other paints....and Shellac does much better on Tweed, and Linen coverings....all of this of course w/ proper due respect to your post.

[Buckocaster51]

Sure, "real nitro" can be sprayed over anything.

But I wouldn't necessarily do that.

The solvents in lacquers (things like acetone) can/will craze, crackle, lift, soften a wide variety of uncured/unprimed/incompatible surfaces and finishes.

It can probably go over those fancy-schmancy "poly" finishes that are UV or catalyst cured...but there are lots of finishes that it will kill.

Acetone and similar organic compounds can be found in many types of paint removers.

Proceed with caution. The woods are full of lions, and tigers, and bears.

[Ronkirn]

It doesn’t really matter what finish you are using…. ALWAYS test before you put down a different chemistry over the previous one….and when you get around to doing the body, allow the previous coats to dry thoroughly (for a couple of weeks) before you start spraying the next layers.

Synthetics today are a composite of many different formulations, and incompatibility problems can plague any finish that uses several different formulations. Witness the cars on the road that are several years old where you can see the clear coat separating from the base coats. Those guys thought they had it figured out too.

Now.. The Nitro misinformation is worse today than it was when I wrote the diatribe discussing the rather dishonest use of the words surrounding nitrocellulose lacquer, several years ago.

Today good ‘ol nitro is available in a water base product, you know, like that Lavender wall paint your Honey wants you to use on the bedroom walls, and it’s available in a Nitrocellulose formulation too. Of course the binders, etc, have nothing to do with acetone or the formulation of the Duco used in the 50’s and 60’s, but they aren’t talking about that are they? The finishes are formulated for mechanized application in production facilities. Remember, to those LARGE manufacturers, time is money, and if they can take a 2 month process like real nitrocellulose lacquer, and compress it to a day or so, big black numbers drop to the bottom line.

Generally speaking, if you’re buying a guitar from a large manufacturer, there ain’t a chance in hell that what they are selling as a nitrocellulose lacquer finish bears any similarity to what you think it does. Crystallized soda pop is about as close.

Now, in all honesty, water based finishes can be superb. Ferrari uses it on their cars. On their Million dollar Enzo, but, it is NOT nitrocellulose, of course, Ferrari knows that using Nitrocellulose would not enhance the tone of the prancing pony, so it ain’t a biggie.

So when a guitar manufacturer uses some chemical concoction that contains a virtually insignificant amount of a cellulose component, and advertises it as a Nitrocellulose Lacquer finish, ya gotta ask yourself, why would they do that? What is their motive? And what else are they distorting as they communicate the virtues of their products to the buying public?

Now here’s a generalized condensed version of the finishing process for the Fender’s of the Golden years… You know, the REAL Fenders. There were variations between ’50 and the early 70’s, but the body was usually dipped in yellow dye, then sprayed with a catalyzed primer/sealer such as Fullerplast, then an acrylic lacquer color coat was applied, then finished with a Nitrocellulose clear coat that’s about it. For more info see: http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

Now to start an argument…. The paint contribution to the musical instrument is primarily for protection, followed by aesthetics. Tone does not factor into the equation unless you have access to an audio spectrum analyzer, and a high grade anechoic room. A collection of qualified audio engineers would be helpful to analyze the data too.

So it comes down to the real difference in all those finishes, is simply feel, to some Nitro feels better than the other stuff. But it’s like the difference between a hug and a kiss from your granddaughter or a lick across your face from your favorite Hound… ya love ‘em both, but the dog is no contest for your Granddaughter.

Ron Kirn