Are all .05 caps created equal?

[blackbelt308]

I know that some people think that paper-in-oil caps give a better tone than ceramic "pills". Reality or myth?

Who manufactures the best/acceptable paper-in-oil caps for guitar circuits? Or are they simple enough that material rather than manufacturer is the key ingredient?

I ask because I'm thinking of re-wiring my MIM Esquire with a more vintage style of cap.

Thanks!
Rick

[normantrophy]

Ooh, there's an argument-starter! I researched some older threads on just this topic, and the results seem inconclusive -- for every person who outlays the subtleties like they're describing fine wines, you either get somebody who's tried out several and either can't tell the difference, or says that there's not enough voltage in a guitar circuit for the type of cap to make a difference. Nose around under the "Search" function, there are several threads on there (some of them fairly current), with a number of interesting links, to boot.

[dual_tone]

hey, i'm always up for a good argument.

it's weird, some people (very experienced guitar/amp techs) swear by them, and others seem to not be able to notice. i personally don't know all that much, but "technically" i would think there would have to be a tonal difference (i mean, they are made out of different material).

however, when you factor in so many other more major components of your final tonal output (wood, guitar contruction, pickup selection, amp, speakers, tubes, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum) i would think that a single tone caps' "value added" is marginal at best, especailly when there are other things in all the myriad of components that could also be tweaked to get you a basically "more bright", or "less bright" tone (or "more this" or "less that"). dig?

in the end, how much more is a top of the line tone cap than a ceramic disk? why not just get the best that all the techies say is the best and then play it with confidence. i mean, i'm not an environmental scientist, but when the majority of the global scientific community (or any "experts" for that matter) concur on global warming, well, then i take their word for it.

[all_identaties_taken]

Personally I think the better quality you put in the more you get out. The differnce is weather you want a linier tone with lots of useable sounds or if you just want an on off treble cut.
It seems potty to me that people spend $100's on pick up's then put the tone through a 5c componant. You don't have to search round for a black cat or anything, a good store will carry Hovlands.

[GDStone]

I just replaced a tone pot in my tele cause I put in a P90 in the neck position.
Without any hesitation, I went to my local industrial electronics store and bought 3 caps ( different values cause I didnt know what I would end up using). Each cap cost me just a little over 1 Canadian dollar each. I dont know what make they are and I dont realy care. A dollar component just has to be better built then a 10 cent component. Its just the way I think. If there is NO real difference between the cheapies and what I have, thats OK too. Having spent a hec of a lot more on the guitar itself, this purchace was a no brainer for me.

[Sleph]

Are all .05 caps created equal?

Well they're obviously not created equal or they would be made of the same stuff. But after reading a whole lotta stuff on a previous post the answer seemed inconclusive.... so I tested a few for my self just yesterday in my current project tele. IMHO it doesn't really matter whether its paper-in-oil, ceramic "pills", orange drops or those little green things what does matter is the cap value....oh and how much space you want to take up in a control cavity.

[crawdad]

I'm with Sleph. Its not that some of the expensive caps are not better--they are--but you have to look at the circuit that they are employed in. If you are talking about coupling caps between amplifier stages, then you can get some performance upgrades by using good caps. With a guitar tone control circuit, I think its much different. All the cap does is bleed treble to ground through a volume pot. Cap VALUE affects the tone control a lot more than cap type. Personally, I am totally fine with those old .05 ceramic caps that Fender used to use. The newer mylar .047's sound the same to me.

Now, if you are going for authenticity, an old paper in oil cap might be perfect for getting the aesthetics of your control wiring correct. Will you be able to tell a difference? Probably not.

[JohnnyCrash]

Are all .05 caps created equal?

Yes. The End.

While they're made up of different compositions, when it comes to use in a guitar, they will all have the same tone... there's people who claim otherwise, but there's no solid proof to the contrary.

In an amp on the other hand, cap composition becomes more important. This is mostly due to the fact that an amp uses a hella lot more caps than a guitar. Also, an amp manipulates signal a lot more than a guitar does. Impedance, voltage, etc.

Still, I've had tube amp snobs claim Orange Drops sound brighter than Mallory caps. I've built amps using either brand and have heard NO difference.

So in a guitar, you definitely won't hear any difference.

I use old school caps in Teles where people will be looking under the hood, or if I take pictures of the wiring for Photobucket drooling, otherwise, they all sound the same.

[Iamblichus]

Here is a link where different cap types were tested
http://skguitar.com/

[blackbelt308]

... for all the good (and civil!) replies! The soldering iron will remain unplugged!

Ciao,
Rick

[Bogo]

Originally Posted by Iamblichus

Here is a link where different cap types were tested
http://skguitar.com/

Finally some tests where someone had the caps switched instantly while playing.
The different material caps do have different measurable characteristics but equating them to audible differences in this particular application never seems to have been proven beyond doubt. Then there's the even more subjective determination as to what any subtle sonic differences mean in terms of more accurate or pleasing sounds.

[blacklinefish]

Originally Posted by Bogo

Finally some tests where someone had the caps switched instantly while playing.

That was a good article. I like how the author mentions picking style being a greater determination of tone.

That having been said, a slight difference was noticed between the ceramic disk and the polyester film caps. Since we are talking about something that costs less than $2 or $3, I don't think that this should be an issue unless you are making hundreds of guitars. Also, if you are heavy-handed at soldering, I'd go with something that can take a little abuse. I use heat sinks, but I still worry every time I solder a ceramic cap.

Some times, when this issue is brought up, the comparison to caps in amplifiers is raised. Even though we are talking milivolts here, I personally think of the electric guitar as part of the amplifier circuit. It's just the part that is connected to the grid of the input tube...

--gh