Own fret level?

[lewis]

I will soon be assembling a parts Tele.
I will be buying my own nut files and a couple of blanks to do the nut work myself.
Question:
Will I be able to level and crown the frets myself on a new Allparts neck? What special tools do I need?
Or is this something only a real luthier should do?
Thanks.

[clayfeat]

I wouldn't think you would need to level and crown the frets on a new neck.

[Rich Rice]

If you haven't don crown and level before, it's a great way to ruin a new AllParts neck. Practice on some old pawn shop clunkers first.

[Scott S]

Read up a bunch first:

Frank Ford's page
Rob's page

[red57strat]

The frets on my USACG neck did not need leveling or crowning at all.
Maybe the frets on the Alparts neck won't either.

[eryque]

The frets on my new USACG neck do need an L&C, and Rob D. told me that most new necks and manufacturers do not L&C.

[Rob DiStefano]

Learn to do yer own L&C, it's not rocket science but there is a learning curve. As posted previously, it's as rare as hen's teeth to find a new neck that's been given a level and crown and polish. I'd venture to say that at least more than half of all new necks will have some measure of improved playability if a L&C is performed on 'em.

However, those leveled and crowned frets will only be leveled and crowned for so long, and like the brake linings of yer car, they'll get worn down according to your usage. And if yer a daily player, in short order you won't have leveled and crowned frets, but yer guitar will still play reasonably well because the frets are worn to your pattern(s) of playing.

There are instances where a fret or two will cause an annoying playing problem - now that needs attention ASAP.

So, I don't consider an L&C for an L&C's sake to be a panecea for playability perfection. When it's time for an L&C, yer guitar will tell you, and typically it will yell message that to ya. ;)

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Learn to do yer own L&C, it's not rocket science but there is a learning curve. As posted previously, it's as rare as hen's teeth to find a new neck that's been given a level and crown and polish. I'd venture to say that at least more than half of all new necks will have some measure of improved playability if a L&C is performed on 'em.

However, those leveled and crowned frets will only be leveled and crowned for so long, and like the brake linings of yer car, they'll get worn down according to your usage. And if yer a daily player, in short order you won't have leveled and crowned frets, but yer guitar will still play reasonably well because the frets are worn to your pattern(s) of playing.




There are instances where a fret or two will cause an annoying playing problem - now that needs attention ASAP.

So, I don't consider an L&C for an L&C's sake to be a panecea for playability perfection. When it's time for an L&C, yer guitar will tell you, and typically it will yell message that to ya. ;)

One thing I always like about your Posts Rob....even though you could always get "All Techno" with us if you wanted to, your answers always have a Large Dose of " Common Sense"

I be Likin' That..just thought ya outta know :)

[red57strat]

Originally Posted by eryque

The frets on my new USACG neck do need an L&C, and Rob D. told me that most new necks and manufacturers do not L&C.

The frets on my USACG neck were not levelled and crowned. They folks at USACG had dressed the ends beautifully and left the L&C for me to do. When I set up the guitar it played better than any guitar I had ever played.

Could it have been improved with an L&C?
Maybe, although I don't think so. The perfectly round fret tops gave me slick bending, perfect intonation and crisp definition of notes.
Two and a half years later and it's still wonderful!

[old_picker]

It is hard to tell until you string it up and do the setup. If it is a maple neck you will need to clean the lacquer off the frets anyhow so heres how i do it.

I usually black the frets with a marker and slide a mill file down the frets very GENTLY to make sure the frets are level. Once you have a little gold stripe on all frets, reblack all frets and crown them carefully. When that is finished, you can polish with 0000 steel wool and 1500 wet n dry. Use those lil stainless fretguard thingies you get from stewmac.

It is not difficult especially with a nice new neck. I would say that the mill file is pretty aggressive and you would be well advised to try the process out on a crappy 2nd hand beater first. That first stroke with the file, if you aint carefull, can take a heavy bite.

Another thing to watch is that the neck is flat [use a steel rule to check it] by clamping etc. Most new necks will have a slight back bow or under bow. You will need to clamp it up so the neck is dead flat.

Like most jobs setting it up properly is where the time is spent. The job itself should not take more than 10 to 15 minutes. Add a bit more for final polish and making sure the lacquer is gone from the frets.

There is a good article in Kanimoto's "Electric Guitar Setups" on milling fets.
no voodoo required just a bit of patience and care.
good luck.

[Rob DiStefano]

IMO and for the most part, L&C's are typically best done with production paper grit and not with a hard file - I reserve files for really severe leveling issues, followed by a variety of grits.

First, you must get the fretboard level - do so by making a fretboard level straight edge out of a 24" drafting "T" square ($9 at Staples), remove the "T", lay the remaining clear plastic straight edge over the neck's frets, put a mark at every fret, cut a nice 3/16"-1/4" notch at each mark with a file or Dremel tool.

Take yer nifty fretboard straight edge and lay it over the frets in the middle of the neck and adjust the truss rod for a flat fingerboard.

After coloring the fret tops (I like bright colors that stand out, like red or green) start off with 600 (I use Klingspor exclusively) wrapped around something that's nice and solid and dead level, like a 7" or 9" hand wood plane (with the blade removed!) - I use a 3/4"x2"x9" leveling steel block that I had a machine shop grind dead level on the narrow side, the grit paper goes on that narrow 3/4" side.

After the frets are leveled, recolor the fret tops and crown them - you can use a small file for crowning but most of us are using special diamond crowning files that are sized to the frets. Leave a Super narrow band of color on the fret tops.

Now buff out the fret tops starting with 600 grit through 12000 grit - I wrap the paper around a small block of neoprene rubber that has a rounded edge - do the fret tops and fret ends.

[tdowns]

Great info Rob. I enjoy your website. That is a great idea about the "T" square. The Stewmac notched fretboard level is $66.

What is your opinion about??:
[*]Wood or aluminum radius sanding cauls[*]Crown type polishing wheels for a Dremel tool[*]Gravity bias on the neck when laid in a holder and bias of applied force during the leveling sanding operation? I assume you adjust the truss rod level to the fretboard with the guitar positioned in the holder below???? Seems that if you push down on the sanding bar in the pic below, the wood block will bend the neck upward. Or is the sanding force negligible? Ref pic below:

[eryque]

FYI, in getting ready to do this I was preparing a $9 t-square for the job and found that the plastic edges are not perfectly straight. They're close, though one edge has a visible curvein the plastic edge that would overlap the T part of the square. no biggie, I don't need that part so I just ground it off. The corners of the plastic edge also protruded a little bit and also got ground off.

Also, FYI, I broke down and ordered Stew-mac's fret board leveler, which is supposed to be precision-ground to be dead level. Well, it ain't quite. I held it to a metal straight-edge (another t-square) and found that one side has a slight dip in the middle and the other has a slight hump. The side with the dip is straighter (at least compared to the straight edge) and I'd guess the amount of error on that side is a coupla thousandths, but it's there. Not sure if it's enough to affect the job, and I'm not convinced that bigger errors won't be introduced when slapping sandpaper over the edge.

It's one of these:

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by tdowns

Great info Rob. I enjoy your website.

Terry - I *really* enjoy yer playing!

That is a great idea about the "T" square. The Stewmac notched fretboard level is $66.

One side notched for a 25.5" scale, the other left un-notched - you've got Fender frettboards and frets covered for $9 ... every bit as good as my $100 straight edge.

What is your opinion about??:
[*]Wood or aluminum radius sanding cauls

I've got the 8" wood ones and they work okay ... OOOOOO, the aluminum cauls are Killer - but the price!!! Ack!!!
[*]Crown type polishing wheels for a Dremel tool

NEVER! I almost never ever work on one fret at a time - too easy to kill all that good leveling work!
[*]Gravity bias on the neck when laid in a holder and bias of applied force during the leveling sanding operation? I assume you adjust the truss rod level to the fretboard with the guitar positioned in the holder below????

Yes.

Seems that if you push down on the sanding bar in the pic below, the wood block will bend the neck upward. Or is the sanding force negligible?

That leveling steel block you see in the bottom pic weighs a good 5 lbs - no need to ever push down, it does all the work. Once the truss rod adjusts the neck flat, I put it up on the block (don't move the block, keep it in the same position), lay down the weight and recheck the board levelness - 9 times outta 10 the board is still level - if not, tweak the rod.

Before refretting, depending on the neck stability, the fingerboard fret slot size, and the fret tang size, I might add in a slight amount of neck relief to allow for fret compression.

FWIW, I almost always remove bolt-on necks and sit'em in a cork lined cradle for both fretting and leveling ... I've been "going back to my roots" these dayze, and tapping the frets in rather than using the fret press - particularly on solid maple necks where the customer doesn't want the board refinished and wants to retain that relic'd look and feel of a well used fingerboard.

Charlie Frey's refret that I just finished - here you see the frets all banged in and waiting to get flush nipped ... another staple of refrets is the steel chasing plate - see it just above the neck and nestled inside a half round of fret wire? After each fret that gets seated in, it gets "chased" with the plate covering that fret and 2 or 3 preveiously installed frets - this really helps keep the frets level as you work the board and minimizes the subsequent, and possibly invasive, fret leveling.



Ref pic below:

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by eryque

FYI, in getting ready to do this I was preparing a $9 t-square for the job and found that the plastic edges are not perfectly straight. They're close, though one edge has a visible curvein the plastic edge that would overlap the T part of the square. no biggie, I don't need that part so I just ground it off. The corners of the plastic edge also protruded a little bit and also got ground off.

You can check a T-square's edge on a known reasonably straight surface, such a glass table top, or steel straight edge - I've got about half a dozen T-square edges that I use and maybe I've been lucky but haven't found one that was off by more than .001".

Also, FYI, I broke down and ordered Stew-mac's fret board leveler, which is supposed to be precision-ground to be dead level. Well, it ain't quite. I held it to a metal straight-edge (another t-square) and found that one side has a slight dip in the middle and the other has a slight hump. The side with the dip is straighter (at least compared to the straight edge) and I'd guess the amount of error on that side is a coupla thousandths, but it's there. Not sure if it's enough to affect the job, and I'm not convinced that bigger errors won't be introduced when slapping sandpaper over the edge.

Heheheheh - yeah, a few years back I succombed to the Stew-Mac "charm" and bought one of those levelers .... IMO, overpriced and, as you've found out, not all that straight a working edge ... go to a machine shop and get'em to cut off a chunk of milled steel 3/4" x 2" x 9" and grind both of the 3/4" edges dead flat ... might cost ya all of $20-$30 ... a superb fret leveler, I guarantee.

For the most part, I use 600 grit Klingspor paper for leveling - if I need more cut, I go to 320 grit. If I use a coarser grit, or need to go to a file, once leveled I go back over the frets with progressively lighter grits, always ending with 600 grit. After crowning, the final rounding is accomplished with buffing passes of 600 grit, then the buffing polishing commences with MicroMesh wrapped over the neoprene rubber buffing block - 1500, 1800, 2400, 3200, 4000, 6000, 8000, 12000. The frets will shine like silver jewels.

If ya can't return the SM leveler, I'd suggest finding the flattest edges and cut off a 9" long section, file the END edges rounded (for ease of leveling) and just use that ... you can add lead (sinkers) inside the hollow leveler to add the appropriate weight so that the leveler will do all the uniform pressure work and not you and yer inconsistent hand pressure ... the 9" length makes working with strips of production grit paper easy to use (along with a roll of 1/2" to 3/4" wide double stick tape, make sure to wrap the tape and grit paper over the end of the leveler ... 9" is plenty of length to properly level a bass guitar neck, let alone a guitar neck ... for mandos and other smaller instros, I use a 6" leveling block.

It's one of these:

[tdowns]

Thanks for the great info Rob. :D

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by tdowns

Thanks for the great info Rob. :D

Thanx fer yer great playin' Terry! :D

[Soapbarstrat]

I also bought one of the 16" ground O-beam levelers from Stew-Mac, and found it to be far from being very flat, and also a dip on one side and a hump in the middle of the other side. Told Stew-Mac ,and they said to send it back and they'd pick a better one. So, with the next one, they said they checked the flatness against one of those Starrett flat pieces of rock, and from this checking, determined that the leveler was "good enough for the job it's intended for". (pretty much what I'd say if I decided to use a block of wood ran through the jointer)

I got it, checked it, and it was worse than the first one.

My main straight-edge is a 'Bridge City Tool Works' 24" precision ground. .002" tolerance over the 24" length. I trust it.

Also have a Stew-Mac notched straight-edge that checks out flat against my Bridge City SE.

So, those are what *I* used to check the flatness of the leveling beams.

I sent the second one back ,and if I remember correctly, I chose to get other tools instead of my money back. (they would have given my money back- they told me so) .

Went back to using my 'Donnell fret plane' (13" long, 2.5" wide, 1/4" thick *flat* glass bonded to dense particle board), which I bought from Stew-Mac in the late 80's.
Much flatter than those 2 metal bar levelers. But I liked the size of those long metal bars.

Finally, I made my own long thin levelers with 1/4" thick *flat* glass strips bonded to metal beams, and they are perfect.

I don't want to come off as a Stew-Mac basher, because they've been the most important source of repair tools and *information* ever since I started doing this stuff. I just think they often let their suppliers get away with doing less than they're supposed to.

maybe the suppliers think that guitar repair people just don't know any better, or maybe there's some other reason.

http://www.guitarfrenzy.com/StewNJig.jpg

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by Soapbarstrat

... I don't want to come off as a Stew-Mac basher, because they've been the most important source of repair tools and *information* ever since I started doing this stuff. I just think they often let their suppliers get away with doing less than they're supposed to. ...

Yes, along with LMI they're pretty much the prime suppliers of luthier tooling. In the long run, Frank Ford had it pegged right from the beginning make, or have made, yer own tools - which is essentially what SM does, buying and reworking stock tools.

Now, who can step up to the plate and offer tungstun carbide cutters and files for s/s fret jobs?

[eryque]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

[*]Crown type polishing wheels for a Dremel tool

NEVER! I almost never ever work on one fret at a time - too easy to kill all that good leveling work!

Rob, how do you polish multiple frets at once?

There were a few minutes while crowning my frets that I wished I had an appropriate attachment for my Dremel. I decided to start at the 21st fret (which I don't use often) so that I'd know better what I was doing by the time I got to the frets that I really use. Since those frets were so high and had no falloff, I really wound up taking a lot off while leveling them. It really seemed to be taking a long time to crown each of these with my fret crowning file (more than 5 minutes each fret) and I wasn't looking forward to spending so much time filing each fret.

It turns out that only a couple of frets needed that much work, and the others took just a few seconds. That fret metal is soft and pretty easy to work quickly. A Dremel tool would have been completely overkill.

We'll see how the polishing goes, but I don't expect it will be more difficult than the crowning. Just a few strokes at each grit will probably do it.

[Rob DiStefano]

I'd never use a Dremel to polish up all the frets after an L&C - too likely the chance of screwing up the leveling because yer working one unique fret at a time. Yes, you'll see luthiery vendors hawking the tooling and use of Dremel fret polishing - these are the same vendors that offer "V" nutfiles ... I have a problem with all that nonsense.

Instead, I use a grit paper and cloth MicroMesh wrapped over a small block of neoprene rubber, and use a buffing motion that sweeps all the frets at once, from first to last. This goes as quick, if not quicker, that motor buffing the frets to a high silver gloss ...

[eryque]

Gotcha! Now I'm glad I asked, because I would have been working each fret individually.

[eryque]

Rob, how much buzzing is usually present after doing an L&C with standard action? After I finished the fret work I set my guitar up to Fender specs (Action ~5/64" at the 12th fret for the low E, 4/64 for the high E, truss rod adjusted properly) and found that it buzzes a lot more than I expected (though a lot less than it did before). The buzzing doesn't seem to affect the amplified tone or sustain, but it's right along that edge where any more buzzing would start to make it sound choked off.

I actually kinda did the L&C twice. After I finished crowing the frets the first time I worried that I might have un-leveled them, so I took a couple of quick passes with the sandpaper again and found that all was good with the exception of one fret, and a little quick work was all it took to put things right. Then the polishing and I was done.

[droo]

i just did a L&C yesterday, i had never done one before. It was risky but it needed it and as i figured the worst thing that could have happened is that i'll need to take it to a pro for a l&C...

Anyways it intonates a bit better but strangly the buzzing remains the same :S

It was buzzing on the g string on the 2nd and 7th frets a lot and still is, less but it still does.

I dont get guitars.....

[chickenpicker]

I too have levelled and crowned frets, with some success.

One of the main reasons for that success is the advice received on this forum.

My thanks to everyone who pitches in with good ideas, in particular Rob DiStefano, who could keep his tips to himself and thereby make more money, but who chooses to let us all in on the secrets. Thanks Rob.

Now can someone out there let me know the secret of how to play better?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by eryque

Rob, how much buzzing is usually present after doing an L&C with standard action? After I finished the fret work I set my guitar up to Fender specs (Action ~5/64" at the 12th fret for the low E, 4/64 for the high E, truss rod adjusted properly) and found that it buzzes a lot more than I expected (though a lot less than it did before). The buzzing doesn't seem to affect the amplified tone or sustain, but it's right along that edge where any more buzzing would start to make it sound choked off.

I actually kinda did the L&C twice. After I finished crowing the frets the first time I worried that I might have un-leveled them, so I took a couple of quick passes with the sandpaper again and found that all was good with the exception of one fret, and a little quick work was all it took to put things right. Then the polishing and I was done.

Bear with me a bit, please ...

We play deflected string instruments, and worse yet they've got these speed bumps on'em called "frets". As with all things in our universe, the laws of physics rule our actions (umm, yep, pun intended :) )

Frets will never be perfectly level, not even the Plek machine can do that, and if it did they wouldn't stay perfectly level for very long 'cause yer playing will wear down those nicely rounded crowns more sooner than later.

There are three kinds of noises that frets render electric guitars - good musical tones that come shining through yer amp and nothing else, musical tones through yer amp and "fret rattles" when unamplified, audible musical tones and fret buzzes through yer amp.

Assuming that the frets are leveled properly, and if a low playing action is required, it's almost impossible to not have some fret rattles. This is governed by the guitar's fretboard scale, the gauge of the strings and the tuning tension. Longer scales, bigger strings and higher string tensions will allow lower actions that have less (or no) string rattle. That's the physics of noiseless low guitar action.

Lemme paint a worse case scenario that I see all too often: a metal head drops off an Ibanez Metallica-wannabe axe for me to setup ... it sports a Floyd-Rose trem, 24-3/4" scale, 9-42 strings, and he plays down a half step in Eb ... he's a heavy handed player that does more to destroy the guitar strings than attack 'em ... he wants the action "as low as possible, 4/64" off the frets, without any buzzing whatsoever" ... what's wrong with this picture??? Ack!!! Just shoot me now, please!!!!

Most studio musicians setup their guitars with relatively high actions that if measured would be in increments of 1/16", not 1/64". They have a huge need to play as cleanly as possible - their livlihood depends on this!

Guitars are unique li'l buggers and each will have some quirks about them that may never allow you to achieve the playability you see in your mind's eye, and you may need to resort to either compromise or the Garage Sale. The more time you spend getting to know your guitar by working on it, the better off the both of you will be. Keep in mind the laws of physics and realize that low playing action and guitars is not a match made in heaven - more like that other place down below.

[droo]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

Lemme paint a worse case scenario that I see all too often: a metal head drops off an Ibanez Metallica-wannabe axe for me to setup ... it sports a Floyd-Rose trem, 24-3/4" scale, 9-42 strings, and he plays down a half step in Eb ... he's a heavy handed player that does more to destroy the guitar strings than attack 'em ... he wants the action "as low as possible, 4/64" off the frets, without any buzzing whatsoever" ... what's wrong with this picture??? Ack!!! Just shoot me now, please!!!!

just slap on some 11s and tell him forget metal, play the blue :D

Btw speaking of high acion did anyone ever notice that when you raise the action the guitar just sounds better regardless of fret buzz???

[eryque]

I already thanked Rob in an email, but thought that he deserved some kudos publicly as well for all the help he provides. And the instructions made the L&C process stupid easy for me.

Originally Posted by droo

Btw speaking of high acion did anyone ever notice that when you raise the action the guitar just sounds better regardless of fret buzz???

I think it sounds better if you raise the action enough so that it doesn't buzz. Beyond that, the only change I notice is that it's more and more out of tune as you go up the neck.

[rand z]

My thanks to everyone who pitches in with good ideas, in particular Rob DiStefano, who could keep his tips to himself and thereby make more money, but who chooses to let us all in on the secrets. Thanks Rob.

DITTO!!!!!!!

i always make sure i read anything and everything rob has to say about guitars!

thank you rob!!!


rand z (tropical soul)