I need a fix for TALL saddle height screws .

[Chet Johnson]

Hello ,
I just put these Allparts compensated saddles on my relic. They are cool, but the saddle height screws are really tall, and hard on the hand.

They are some metric thread that I coildn't pinpoint at the hardware store. So I don't know what to look for next.

I'd rather not have to buy another set of saddles.

Can I grind some off on the bottom of the screw where they rest on the plate?

Anyone got some shorter Allparts screws?

Thanks for any help in advance.

[morroben]

I've ground off the bottoms before with no problems. That's what I would do.

[Telenator]

The problem isn't the screw height, it's the neck angle. Shim the neck a tiny bit at the heel and you'll not only solve the screw height issue, but you'll get a little more snap out of 'er from the improved string break-over angle.

[Chet Johnson]

Originally Posted by morroben

I've ground off the bottoms before with no problems. That's what I would do.

Can I take the screws out without removing the saddle, so I dont have to fool with intonation?

Or, Do I take the saddle off, and lower the screw down, grinding it while in the saddle?

[13ontheB]

Our very own Terry Downs shows you how.


http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes..._screws%20.htm

[JimInMO]

On my Asian made bridges, Strat and Squire Tele Custom, the screws are metric. The stock screws were M3 X10 mm. I purchased some 8's and 6's from the local FastenAll store. They had to order them. 9's would be good too but they only come in even sizes. Will try grinding or using a dremel cut-off blade sometime.

[morroben]

Originally Posted by Telenator

The problem isn't the screw height, it's the neck angle. Shim the neck a tiny bit at the heel and you'll not only solve the screw height issue, but you'll get a little more snap out of 'er from the improved string break-over angle.

This is another option. I tend to shim the neck only if there are other setup issues involved...if it's just a matter of hand comfort then I would just grind the screws. I've heard people talk about the "extra snap", I don't hear it. JMHO YMMV etc etc

[boris bubbanov]

Jim is right; those are gonna be metric, and are probably 10mm long. I've seen 8 mm but only in black. McMaster Carr and Bolt Depot will have both 5mm and 6mm, and may also have these 8mm. Unfortunately these will be hex tops - if you wanna keep the slots you'll have to go to cutting them down. Terry's tutorial is for 6-32 threading - you'll have to find a die that is M3 and I don't know how each that will be. I just tap the saddles out to 6-32 and then I have a cornucopia of different lengths to choose from.

Don't waste time with smallparts.com. They will fill half your order and leave you needing to re-order. They never have what they say they have.

[Telenator]

Originally Posted by morroben

This is another option. I tend to shim the neck only if there are other setup issues involved...if it's just a matter of hand comfort then I would just grind the screws. I've heard people talk about the "extra snap", I don't hear it. JMHO YMMV etc etc

I am at a loss to technically explain the effects of negative neck angle, but I find my guitars play better when the angle is positive. The saddles pictured above appear to be almost bottomed out which severely limits the range of adjustment if it's ever needed, especially for those "seasonal" adjustments. I try to build and set up my guitars so all adjustments sit in the middle of their range. It's just good practice.

[BritishBluesBoy]

Originally Posted by Telenator

The problem isn't the screw height, it's the neck angle. Shim the neck a tiny bit at the heel and you'll not only solve the screw height issue, but you'll get a little more snap out of 'er from the improved string break-over angle.

Yup, this is solid advice...

[Southern Ill Electrics]

Shim it.

[rhomco]

I put the set screw in my power drill chuck and use the drill like a mini lathe. First I nip the unwanted portion off with common dykes. Next I file the cut end into a bullet shape with the drill running. This does not damage the threads and the filed end will thread right into the saddle since the deformation and burrs are all gone. The bullet shape wont scratch the chrome plate as bad on the bridge either. Set screws are intended to bite!
Good luck,
Rob
PS... Yes I have three hands

[jefrs]

I also suggest shimming the neck because the saddles are bottomed out.

Loosen neck screws, drop in a guitar pick, tighten screws. Raise saddles, Done.

[Papa Joe]

Always go to the source of the problem,in this case it's the neck angle.Correct that problem and the bridge problem will be solved..Yepper!!!

[yegbert]

If the saddles are bottomed out I would consider shimming the neck an appropriate step. If they aren't I wouldn't, but that's just me and you can choose whichever advice you think is best. But whether you do that or not, part of the problem is that those screws are made the same length for all positions. The screws nearest the 1st and 6th strings are more exposed that the others, so they need to be made (or replaced by some that are) shorter than the others. And the screws nearest the 2nd and 5th strings may need to be slightly longer than those nearest the 1st and 2nd, but still slightly shorter than those nearest the 3rd and 4th strings. One size (length) doesn't fit all.

I like the Terry Downs method to shorten them, that 13ontheB mentioned.

(I edited this post to correct the information in this paragraph:) One problem I found with height screws on the Allparts saddles I had is that they are a size I can't find replacements for. BoltDepot has some metric set screws here, but not any the same size as mine. (See my later post with more info.)

Chet, I know you indicated you'd rather not buy a different set of saddles. And even if you did, you might find a similar problem with them (some saddle makers will give you at least a couple of different lengths of screws, but not all do). However, take a look at how close those screws on your Allparts saddles are to your strings. Usually when I have screws that close to the strings, the strings end up pressed against the screw, or on top of the edge of the hole (if the screws aren't too long); and I have had that cause some weird sitar-like tonal effects.

[Chet Johnson]

The saddles are about 1/16" (shortest , outside strings)to 1/8" (inner strings)from bottoming out, and there is a shim in the neck pocket already. I'm tellin' ya! The screws are wicked tall, I've compared them to my 9 other teles.

[boris bubbanov]

Looking at those saddles some more, they must be some different saddles from Allparts than I am accustomed to. Those screws look awful big to be M3s. Maybe some other images would help; more angles, so we can see.

I will agree that "relics" aren't supposed to have slammed saddles. Normally when the neck, body and bridge assembly come together, they don't set up like that. Perhaps the neck pocket is too shallow, of the heel has been left too thick after being saved from a Squier or similar (which has a deeper neck pocket to start). It probably should not stay like that - there's a serious chance a set of 1/4 inch saddles, well relieved on the undersides of the E-A and B-little E saddles, will still not really set up right.

The 2008 and earlier import Joe Barden saddles have crazy high M3 screws, slot head. But the screws just didn't look so big and beefy like that. Maybe these are a different batch? Maybe the saddles sold separately are very different?

[charlie chitlin]

Terry's idea for trimming is good, as usual.
I do something similar...my wire cutting/crimping pliers have several sizes of threaded stud cutters built in, so I don't need to buy the die.
When cutting something threaded, it's always best to screw it into something first so the thread will get cleaned when you screw it out.
I count how many threads are sticking out the top and cut that many off the bottom.

[Chet Johnson]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Looking at those saddles some more, they must be some different saddles from Allparts than I am accustomed to. Those screws look awful big to be M3s. Maybe some other images would help; more angles, so we can see.

I will agree that "relics" aren't supposed to have slammed saddles. Normally when the neck, body and bridge assembly come together, they don't set up like that. Perhaps the neck pocket is too shallow, of the heel has been left too thick after being saved from a Squier or similar (which has a deeper neck pocket to start). It probably should not stay like that - there's a serious chance a set of 1/4 inch saddles, well relieved on the undersides of the E-A and B-little E saddles, will still not really set up right.

The 2008 and earlier import Joe Barden saddles have crazy high M3 screws, slot head. But the screws just didn't look so big and beefy like that. Maybe these are a different batch? Maybe the saddles sold separately are very different?

http://www.allparts.com/Tilted-Brass...p-2328-008.htm I'll try to snap some pics of more angles. These are the saddles that are on it. I wish I'd put Something like Joe Barden's on it.

[yegbert]

chet, I found my old Allparts saddles and took the best measurements I can.

I have a guage that can measure both the diameter and the thread count simultaneously, for standard screws. It's basically a flat plate with some holes drilled and tapped to a range of standard screw sizes. You try to screw the screw in and if you can it's the size that the hole is marked for.

But I don't have a guage that can measure both the diameter and the thread pitch simultaneuosly like that, for metric screws.

I have a guage that can measure just the thread pitch for metric accurately, each pitch is a flat blade that swings out from a holder like a typical set of automotive feeler guages. Each blade has a toothed section that you place against the screw's threads, and if the teeth mesh with the screw it is the thread pitch marked on the blade. I have a similar guage to measure standard thread count.

Then I have an accurate digital micrometer with which I can measure the diameter of screws.

But the observable diameter of screws of known sizes, measure some smaller with the micrometer than their rated size. So for example, the screws that I know are rated as 3mm in diameter, measure somewhere around 2.87mm.

So here's the first perplexing thing about the Allparts height screws. They measure around 3.4mm in diameter, which is incidentally the same as my standard 6-32 screws measure. Not closer to 4mm (following the trend I see with the 3mm screws). So it seems they may be 3.5mm in diameter.

And their thread pitch is .6mm.

So I guess they aren't 4mm in diameter as I had thought (from memory), and even if they were, they aren't 7mm thread pitch like the ones I saw on BoltDepot.

The specs on these Allparts screws have us screwed pretty good.

If the screw holes in the saddles were smaller in diameter, say 3mm, they would probably be good candidates for upsizing to the standard 6-32 as Boris likes to do on 3mm screw holes. Since they are brass which is a bit soft, even through they are already the same diameter as a standard 6, they may still be feasible to have retapped to 6-32.

If I thought mine were worth fooling around with, I would try tapping them to 6-32. But as I noted earlier, I find these have the height screws too close to where the string path falls naturally, so I'm not going to bother retapping mine.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by yegbert

The specs on these Allparts screws have us screwed pretty good.

If the screw holes in the saddles were smaller in diameter, say 3mm, they would probably be good candidates for upsizing to the standard 6-32 as Boris likes to do on 3mm screw holes. Since they are brass which is a bit soft, even through they are already the same diameter as a standard 6, they may still be feasible to have retapped to 6-32.

If I thought mine were worth fooling around with, I would try tapping them to 6-32. But as I noted earlier, I find these have the height screws too close to where the string path falls naturally, so I'm not going to bother retapping mine.

I agree.

I have found that issue with the Allparts TB-5125 bridge assembly. Odd size, that easily offered itself to retapping to 6-32 hardware. Clearly not M3 and clearly not M4.

I agree, whether tapped out or not, the height bores come treacherously close to where the strings will pass on a vintage guitar. But the saddles on the revised Joe Barden (for vintage) bridge, especially the middle saddle, are almost as bad.

I'm thinking about relegating all these Allparts source saddles to Squier 51s and other hot rodded guitars with narrower string arrays. I'll just file down the saddle ends where they mate together for more of a compact fit. I'll start making my own home made replacements.

BTW, it looks like the springs on the saddle model O P Chet Johnson has kindly posted are gonna be too small (ID) to permit their re-use with 6-32 hardware.
I gotta find a reasonably priced source for some more springs. I thought about Lee Spring but it looks like an order of $ 400.00 is the only way to get the price per unit down.

[fezz parka]

Another vote for shimming.

[Rod.V]

I'm really surprised so many folk are opting for the "shim it" option.

I have always been of the opinion that good neck/body contact is of crucial importance in transmitting string vibration throughout the whole instrument. To compromise the integrity of this, when shimming, simply to accommodate the length of some saddle screws seems daft.

I suppose some must like having their neck sitting high in the body, so shimming in this fashion isn't a problem. I've certainly noticed, on my MIJ '62 bound Tele that the neck is much closer to the body than on a MIM Baja and this, IMO, makes it much nicer to play.

I simply cut my saddle screws individually to the correct length, in terms of my set-up. I used wire cutters and then a fine engineer's file to clean/true-up the threads with no problems, although the cut-in-the-die method has a lot to commend it.
Using a slow speed power drill as a min-lathe works fine as long as the workpiece is centrally located in a good quality chuck. (This is also a good method for reducing over-sized dowelling to get an exact O/D for a good fit).

[varakeef]

Originally Posted by Rod.V

I'm really surprised so many folk are opting for the "shim it" option.

I have always been of the opinion that good neck/body contact is of crucial importance in transmitting string vibration throughout the whole instrument. To compromise the integrity of this, when shimming, simply to accommodate the length of some saddle screws seems daft.

Maybe it's the fact that shims has been used succesfully for decades, they're easier to make than cut the screws and they make you no harm.

[Chet Johnson]

Originally Posted by varakeef

Maybe it's the fact that shims has been used succesfully for decades, they're easier to make than cut the screws and they make you no harm.

For the second time, It already has a shim in it. It plays GREAT. It just has really tall screws.

[Telenator]

The "shim issue" may never be resolved among internet board members.

The bridge is designed to ride within a certain height range for optimum performance. Once outside that range, the neck gets shimmed. The two facets work together.

For those who want to get really fanatic about it, you can cut "angled shims" like wedges that fit the neck pocket perfectly and produce the perfect angle for the neck to sit at. Glue it right in there and sleep better at night knowing that your neck heel is seated properly and the the fullest extent it can be. Then we can start to address those pesky gaps on either side of the neck pocket. Sure wouldn't want our precious tone to start oozing out of those unsightly, plumber's crack neck gaps.

I know, we'll enlist a machine shop to precision machine custom "heel couplers" so when the neck shrinks in the winter or swells in the summer, we'll have the perfect coupler with the correct neck angle and gap filler sides already to go. Never lose precious tone again!

C'mon guys! Let's get serious. These are bolt-on guitars we're talking about. They're not supposed to be "that good!"

[Rod.V]

Originally Posted by Chet Johnson

For the second time, It already has a shim in it. It plays GREAT. It just has really tall screws.

So the tall screws are the root of the problem? Would it not then, be more sensible to tackle that problem at source rather than further altering a seperate parameter by adding to an already existing shim because it's deemed "easier" than cutting the screws?

If we're getting "serious" please let us acknowledge that it's not difficult to cut some grub screws for a bridge saddle.

It may well be felt by many that shims are "successful" - I think they have their place in the scheme of things - but, in this case, it's like saying: my trousers are too tight, I'll buy a bigger pair, instead of: my trousers are too tight, maybe I should loose some weight.
One course of action is sensible the other is deluded ... (oops, in my opinion).

As a guitar repairer, and player, I love bolt-on neck instruments and celebrate and embrace their "non-perfect" status but that doesn't mean I no longer want to see them operating at their optimum, within those constrictions.

To each their own ...

[Rod.V]

... Having said that, and now seeing the photo of Chet's saddles, they do look as though they need to be raised. Their angle, in relation to the bridge, does certainly give the appearance of them being set far too low.

Just as well I have trousers with an elasticated waist ....

[boris bubbanov]

I wanna know, what is wrong with this guitar body that it could already have a shim in it and still measure that close to the face of the plate?

I think if it were my guitar I would take the neck off and try and determine if the neck pocket is cut properly. I have been so fortunate (except for 1 Warmoth body) to have guitars, many guitars and somehow I've taken shims out and never had to install one. Using lots of 7/16ths saddle height hardware, so I know my saddles aren't slammed.

As far as rustication of parts, I like Preeb's approach. He "stresses" the springs, saddles, etc. but is unapologetic about using clean, shiny saddle height screws. So they remain functional. When rustication begins to prevent people from setting their guitars up as best they can, IMO that's a bridge too far.

And so, as much as I bristle at the idea of using a shim, I would do it if I had to but I want to measure the pocket and see what's going on. If the back of the neck pocket is all depressed and gouged out, I might properly fill and level the pocket.

[Rod.V]

That's a very good question Boris.

Is it perhaps that the shim has been moved to the front-end of the neck pocket, creating the condition which Telenator referred to as a "negative neck angle"?
In other words is the neck just simply pitched in the wrong direction and correct relocation of said shim, at the back-end of the pocket, will put things right?

If you are going to use shims then their placement is crucial. To simply "drop in" a pick, as suggested by one poster, is (IMO) far too hap-hazard a course of action.

[Telenator]

Well, if the shim is installed toward the open end of the neck pocket, that would certainly cause the condition we're seeing.

There is also the possibility that the shim is just plain not thick enough.

There is also a possibility that the finish on the guitar comes up and over the edge of the neck pocket which, in itself could create the need for a shim at the heel.

Without seeing the neck pocket or knowing the exact location and size of the existing shim, it's impossible know.

I have actually gone through the trouble of making "wedge" shims that do maintain complete contact across the length and width of the entire neck pocket. It takes a few tries to get it perfect but you certainly can slice 'em off using a good table saw.

[Chet Johnson]

OK, since the neck has already been shimmed, I cut the screws. Leaving the guitar at pitch, I repeated this process 6 times.

1. Removed and mark the screw
2. Used a hand drill as a mini lathe, held the screw without damaging threads, and allowed me to rotate the screw evenly while grinding.
3. Reset modified screw. Intonation wasn't changed, and when back to the correct pitch, the height was correct. There was no timely set up.

The guitar is VERY COMFORTABLE now. I'm excited to play it again.

[rhomco]

I'm gots smile on my face The mini lathe trick works again.
Rob

[Telenator]

I love a happy ending!