Going from custom 4 way to standard 3 way on Baja

[Danny!]

Long title, sorry. New to the forum here, I was looking to get some info taking out the S-1 switch on my Baja in place of a regular volume knob, and replacing the 4 way switch with a normal 3 way. I've found diagrams and such on Seymour Duncan, but the color coded wires look like they're specific for the Baja. Should I just play around with it once I get the parts in?

[sjtalon]

std. 3 way switch:

http://www.pmpickups.com/images/wiring_Tele_3way.jpg

Your Neck black and green would go to ground, the yellow (white in the diagram) to the switch (pos).

The white bridge (pos) would go to the switch and the black to ground

[Danny!]

Thanks, that doesn't sound too bad...hopefully I'll just be able to cannibalize wires from the setup that comes standard.

I just find myself not ever using the S-1 switch, the nasally tones worked for Peter Green, they don't really work for me though.

Let me just ask, is all the grounding I'll be doing to prevent feedback? I'll be grounding 4 wires, 3 from pickups, and one from the jack. I don't have a background of education in electronics, but since you're soldering to the back of the pot it doesn't really affect your sound. The only reason you'd do it is to cancel out some sort of unwanted noise, right?

[sjtalon]

A pickup coil needs to be grounded to complete an electrical circuit.

It is a circuit in that voltage goes to the amp and has to have a return path. That's why you have a ground wire in the cord that comes back to the grounds in the guitar.

[Danny!]

Ah I see. I don't understand it, but thanks for the info!

[sjtalon]

It's all done with mirrors...................just kidding.

BASICALLY:

http://www.hometips.com/articleimage...ircuit_sb1.jpg

A pickup is a voltage generator (produces voltage or is the source as in the picture just like a battery would in a circuit)
the voltage produced FROM the pickup ("hot" or positive wire, and it is a very low amount) goes to the amp (light bulb in the pic), the amplifier increases that voltage to drive (vibrate) the speaker to make sound. The voltage (or call it electricity) HAS to return to the source that made it (called neutral or ground) to COMPLEAT the circuit and round and round it goes ( at the speed of light)

[Danny!]

So the voltage goes from the pickup (which created the voltage because of the vibration of the strings) to the volume pot, then to the tone pot, and to the input jack, which sends it to the amp and back the same way, yeah? I'm used to working on my Les Paul, I've never done work on my Tele, so I see the Les Paul configure in my head. Are the grounded wires between the neck tone and volume, the two volumes, and the bridge tone and volume used to get the signal to the input jack when using just the neck? Because otherwise the neck has no connection to the input other than at the pickup selector if I'm thinking about this right...

Sorry for the LP related question, but that's just how I see it in my head.

[sjtalon]

TELECASTER. The pickup voltage goes to the switch THEN to the vol pot and then out to the jack .The connection with the tone pot is so the tone pot can "rob" or bleed high frequencies to ground as you turn it ( that's why they (tone pots) all have a tab connected to ground). So the voltage does not go "to" the tone pot per se. The volume pots have a terminal attached to ground as well so they can bleed voltage off to ground therefor reducing the power, which is why the volume goes down.
So they each have there little specialty.



The LP pickup voltage goes TO (and through) the volume pot, then out another terminal on that pot to the switch and then the switch position decides which voltage (pickup) goes TO the output jack from there. As I said above the only purpose for the connection to the tone pot is so the tone pot can rob the high freqs as you turn that control ( making the tone darker). The capacitor in this tone circuit determines how high a freq gets through so you don't loose too many as you turn the tone pot ( too dark or muddy quickly).

As far as grounds, ground is ground and that's it. All things can be together in the ground world. Hot wires (positive) are a different story as they are carrying the "signal" and we do things to that along the way.

[Danny!]

Huh, so the tabs aren't all the same, I had no idea. If you didn't have a tab connected to the ground on the volume pot (or tone pot I guess), would turning the shaft just not do anything? How would you know which tab to ground if you didn't have a diagram?

On the diagram you supplied of standard 3 way wiring, the tone pot has an .047 capacitor serving as a connection between the tab and the ground (I assume), does a higher capacitor value make it so you loose more highs faster?

I really appreciate all this info, you have no idea. Thank you.

[sjtalon]

Sorry, I did some edit work while you posted.

Right, the pots would not work if not connected to ground.

http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel...eeinfo/fi.html


http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel...eeinfo/fi.html

[Danny!]

Ahaha yeah I saw that, you were editing while I was editing for YOUR editing

Brilliant, thanks for the link. The capacitor that comes standard in Baja wiring is .05 uf, does it matter if I use that instead of the recommended .047?

[sjtalon]

>does a higher capacitor value make it so you loose more highs faster?<
Yes because it lets "more" through, you would see it like a screen, some are fine some have bigger holes.

so a .020 would let less high through than your .047.

.050 .047 whatever, that little bit won't matter.



http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel...eeinfo/fi.html

[Danny!]

I'm restringing right now with the 3 way switch and new volume pot freshly installed. Everything is fine except for one concern, the volume doesn't fade very evenly. When you turn until there's nothing coming through the amp there's still a good bit of rotation left on the pot. I'm not sure if this is a wiring issue or what...

Also the volume pot came with a cap that says "ICMSR1 04K 250V S 817". I didn't use it, not sure if I was supposed to.

[sjtalon]

I think that's just a (.040 µF ??) cap for the tone pot.

[adamwastaken]

Originally Posted by sjtalon

It's all done with mirrors...................just kidding.

BASICALLY:

http://www.hometips.com/articleimage...ircuit_sb1.jpg

A pickup is a voltage generator (produces voltage or is the source as in the picture just like a battery would in a circuit)
the voltage produced FROM the pickup ("hot" or positive wire, and it is a very low amount) goes to the amp (light bulb in the pic), the amplifier increases that voltage to drive (vibrate) the speaker to make sound. The voltage (or call it electricity) HAS to return to the source that made it (called neutral or ground) to COMPLEAT the circuit and round and round it goes ( at the speed of light)

Talon,

A guitar lead only has 2 wires does it not? The hot wire, to the amp, and the ground, to the ground?

I thought that a guitar circuit has no "neutral" end? because the voltage starts with the pickups?

Nothign comes BACK UP the guitar lead into the guitar does it?

[sjtalon]

Oh Boy Adam, still reading away ! Just kidding.


Using the light bulb deal is a good way to show a BASIC electrical circuit.

Any electrical circuit needs TWO wires to be complete. Weather it be a battery or a generator, the voltage (electrons) produced needs a place to go to….something to attract it you could say. Positive to negative.

If you had a volt meter that could read millivolts, and connect one test lead from the meter to the positive wire from the pickup and picked the sting, you wouldn’t get ANY voltage reading on the meter. Now when you touch the OTHER (-) lead of the voltmeter to a COMMON ground ( meaning what the negative wire of the guitar is connected to) the pickup can now generate voltage which would run THROUGH the meter, give you a voltage reading, and onto ground (neutral). The electromagnet (pickup) voltage needs something to return to. It’s a circuit.

So for the amp to get the voltage FROM the guitar, it has to be “tied” to the pickups ground as well.

Forget about the guitar cable, volume control, jacks, yada yada:

If you took one wire from the pickup and hooked it up to the positive wire in the amp jack itself and picked a string, there would be NO amplified sound. You have to hook ANOTHER wire ( the negative or “opposite“ ) to the amp to complete the circuit WITH THE PICKUP. Now the voltage can go TO the amp, THROUGH the amp ( get amplified in voltage) and BACK to the pickup via the neutral wire.

Another part of the story:
Just because ALL the grounds are tied into a common place (at the guitar) doesn’t mean the voltage doesn’t run from point A to point B as the positive wires are ALL separate. Having all the grounds together (bonded) is so they (- electrons) all have the same potential (same place to go) in the common circuit. If you have grounds (wires) in different places you can have what is called ground loops because electricity flows to different places at different times ( even though it’s going at about 186,000 MPH).

Well I’m not an electrical engineer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once.

[adamwastaken]

HMMM!

Interesting.

So really earth is the "return" of the circuit? the "spent" electrons dont actually travel BACK UP the pickups ground wire and back into the pickup do they? I thought that the ground wires took hot voltage OUT to ground, in the same direction, OUT, as the hot output? When voltage is being grounded, it is being shunted INTO the earth right?

How is it that the spent electrons can return to the pickups, via the grounding wire, if say a hot signal is also being grounded to earth through that same piece of wire?

If I'm not completely mistaken, thats a hot signal being shunted to earth, as well as the spent electrons returning to the pickup... all in the SAME length of wire, in oppossing directions, at exactly the same time?

This to me seems cccrazy?

Thanks dude.

[adamwastaken]

PLUS! AH!

Think of a power supply socket. You have a positive, negative, and a ground.

Actually I challenge you to take up your test! haha not really. No one probably has the patience and sane mind to do that...

BUT, see, a generator (pup) needs soemwhere to send the hot signal yes, but it doesnt NEED a return path for the electrons. Because it is doing what its name states. Generating.

A ground wire cant be a "negative" wire because its sending hot voltage to ground. Shunting it.

A ground connection cannot be both a "negative"/return path, as well as a grounding path. Can it?

Indeed if you solder the pup wires the wrong way round, it wont work, only because the entire output of the pup is going directly to the earth connection.

I dunno if I am just beating this poor dead horse or what, but I just ogtta understand it. I cant tame the beast, but I sure a hell can understand it!

Adam

[cc9cii]

It is good to see that you want to learn, and learn in depth.

Try with something like this as a basic background.

Electricity does need a "return path" for it to do anything useful. It is not possible to generate electric charge on one polarity only (positive or negative) since that would imply creation and destruction of electrons. (there is something about the conservation of matter) What actually happens is a transfer of electrons from one object to another that creates a "potential difference" between the two objects. If the transferred electrons are held there (because the path between the objects has been removed), the potential difference holds - this is a "capacitor". On Earth the body of Earth has net negative charge (we call this ground).

WRT paths, what can confuse some is that there are "hidden" paths. Most insulators are in fact weak conductors, especially at high frequencies, and electricity can seemingly "jump" across insulators via magnetic fields. This has practical implications (see below).

With guitar pickups, the electric current is actually alternating (AC). We use "hot" and "negative" as a convenient way to lable parts of the circuit, but that is all. One can connect either leads of the pickups to "ground" and it will work just as well (ignoring matching polarity/phase to the other pickups, etc, for simplicity).

I guess what I'm trying to explain (perhaps not very well) is that although a "negative" lead is usually connected to "ground" it doesn't have to be. It is not required for circuit to work, in theory. In practice, without a connection to "ground", one will hear sounds other than string vibrations (hum, buzz). It is also possible to get exposure to dangerous electric potential via the amp if there is no ground connection at the amp power.

In summary, the guitar pickup moves electrons back and forth (i.e. AC) between its two leads at a high frequency (string vibrations + its harmonics + noise). One of the two leads is connected to "ground" to solve practical issues other than to make the pickups work.

HTH

[jefrs]

The Baja's Twisted Tele neck pickup has three wires: a hot, a cold and a ground. That's so it can be reversed (or inverted). The tin can around the neck pickup is earthed for shielding (earthed = grounded to earth, 0V).

The bridge pickup has but two wires, hot and cold, the cold is also the ground connection to the strings via the saddles. This ground connection provides some shielding but is mainly a safety feature.

The pickup and jack wires are arranged as twisted pairs, properly done this provides hum-cancelling as efficient as shielded wiring, especially for small signals that are not significantly above earth potential.

To re-wire a Baja as 'normal' (what is that around here?) :-

The jack has two wires, hot and cold/ground. The hot wire is soldered to the wiper of the vol pot. The cold wire is soldered to the case of the vol pot, same as Baja.

The pickupses' cold wires and the neck ground wire are soldered to ground on the case of the vol pot.

The hot wires of the pickups got to the selector switch (see your diagram). The hot wire from the selector switch is soldered to the top tag of the vol pot and the bottom tag of the tone pot, so there is a high resistance from the signal down to the capacitor when the tone pot is at '10'.

The capacitor is soldered to the wiper of the tone pot, the other end of the capacitor is soldered to the case and the bottom tag of the vol pot. This double connection completes the signal path.

A 0.047��µF capacitor is a 0.050µF capacitor aka 50nF it is twice as big as a 22nf cap, 22nF are for humbuckers, or not if you prefer.

A pickup is wound from the inside out, the windings build up as they are wound on. By convention the inside is hot and the outside is cold, this convention provides for a degree of self-shielding because the cold outer windings are earthy. This convention is not always followed.

Unless you are very confident, do not attempt to re-solder the Twisted Tele pickup, the fine enamelled coil wires are easily damaged and difficult to solder. Twist the hot and cold wires together into a strand (not tightly) but run the third ground wire free, do same to bridge pickup and jack wires.

[adamwastaken]

Originally Posted by cc9cii

It is good to see that you want to learn, and learn in depth.

Try with something like this as a basic background.

Electricity does need a "return path" for it to do anything useful.

Mmm, by return path i meant returning into the pickup via the groudn wire.

Thats cool, I now get that voltage needs a place to go, and that is both throught the hot end of the circuit and the ground end.

So alternating current shifts backwards and forwards in direction, so in a sense is there no direction to the flow? It can be either or, and both at the same time practically instantaneously?

Heres my simplest question. (I think its my simplest...) Is there anything sent back FROM the amp jack back INTO the pups?

In my mind, there isnt, cause the hot signal travels OUT, to the amplifier, and the unused/stray signal travels OUT to ground.

So all the signal is travelling OUT of the guitar, and nothing comes back in directly as a "negative" signal? Other than the fact that it is all an AC circuit, so theres a bit of theoretical back and forth?

[cc9cii]

In order for a signal to go "out", as you put it, its shadow self must come "in". Horrible way of describing it, I'm sorry

In the instance of time where the positive end of the pickup is actually positive, electrons will go from the negative end of the pickup to the ground of the amp, and at the same time electrons will flow from the 'hot' lead of the amp to the positive lead of the pickup - thus completing the circuit.

A short moment later, electrons will flow from the positive lead of the pickup towards the amp and return via the ground connection.

HTH

[adamwastaken]

MMM!

Ok I think I am perfectly down with this now. With AC power, both ends of the pup coil, shift between positive and negative, so at any instance, whichever direction the current chooses to flow, it has a place to go.

I guess a more correct statement, would be that an amp jack does NOT send hot voltage "back up" to the pickup. but it does provide a path for the AC current to flow both "backwards and forwards" at any instance in time?

Thank you all, very very much.

Adam

[jefrs]

In order for electricity to flow, a circuit must be completed, that's why it's called a circuit.

Imagine a tube full of ball-bearings, if you push one in then one falls out, the tube is the wire and the balls the electrons that live in the wire, electricity is what pushes the electrons about, it does not generate them, to get the electrons to flow the wire/tube must be a loop or circuit, it can have many branches but it must be completed with a return path for current to flow.

[sjtalon]

I lost my military bearing once.


Hey Jefrs, good analogy !

[adamwastaken]

mk.

So, say I am the pickup, and a friend is the strings.

hahaha this is rediculous.

NO REALLY!

and my friend (the strings) pushes me (the pup/magnetic field) and that results in me pushing a ball (electron), which could signify an ouput of voltage, through the tube (wire) which then pushes another ball (electron) in to replace it.

So an output of voltage could be likened to the force in which I push the balls around the circuit?

This no longer relates to anything to do with a Baja...

Thanks lads, hopefully this will be my last post on this topic.

[adamwastaken]

Actually, THIS is my last post.

So the final ground wire of a guitar, carries electrons back "up" into the pups to complete the circuit, as well as bleeds whatever hot signal is being shunted "down" to earth.

This is all possible because we are dealing with AC current.

I am now satisfied that I understand this concept. If my statement sounds true enough, cool, if you guys have anything final to add, be my guest!

Let me know if I am still totally wrong.

Thank you all so very much. I should have stuck with physics in high school...