Nocaster concentric blend, vol and tone circuit

[cc9cii]

First, some background:

I received a CS Nocaster a few days ago. Great guitar, but it is very bright (tone wise). It came with modern wiring from the factory, with 0.001uF treble bleed cap, which doesn't help. I've disabled the treble bleed cap, but the tone is still quite bright and with the modern circuit I felt as if I'm missing out on an "authentic" Nocaster experience without the blend position.

Now, I have a couple of other teles with 4 way wiring that allows neck + bridge serial position. The serial position gives a "fatter" tone to my ears...hmmm....

Next, the neck pickup on the Nocster is somewhat weak (I've spent several hours doing A/B comparison with another Nocaster neck pickup guitar). So I decided to replace it with another Nocaster neck pickup I just happened to have lying around For the serial mod I would have to modify the pup and something doesn't feel right in modifying the "original" neck pup, anyway. What if later I want to put it back together as it was?

Then there were several recent threads here in TDPRI about blend circuits, more on blend, Esquire 'cocked wah', etc. I want to try them all!

So I came up with this circuit (pic to come later):

1. bridge + vol
2. bridge + 0.0047uF + vol (cocked wah)
3. neck blend + bridge + vol (series)
4. neck blend + bridge + vol (parallel, Nocaster*)
5. neck + vol

(*) the blend curve and direction of the knob would be different to the real Nocaster


With a stacked pot for volume and blend, and a No-load tone pot, I can add tone as well.

I've gone ahead and ordered some parts from this link I got from Wally in this thread, they should arrive in a couple of weeks (TWO weeks! There are some disadvantages of livining in Sydney ).

More to come...

[cc9cii]

Too many options. Some of the things that are bugging me right now:

* appearance - will concentric knobs affect the look of the Nocaster too much?
* practicality - can I still do volume swells easily?
* tone control - do I need/use it? wired in or no-load?
* usability - will the blend curve be usable or fiddly?
* knobs - if I do go with concentric pots, which knobs?
* layout - vol/blend + tone, vol + tone/blend, vol + blend (no tone)
* control plate - 2 pots or 3 pots

Blend control options:

opt 1: use 500k part of the concentric pot (Pro: allows tone to be added without drilling a 3rd pot spot)
opt 2: use a separate 250k pot (no tone unless vol/tone concentric or drilling, blend curve may be fiddly)
opt 3: use 6 position rotary switch with pre-configured values (no tone unless vol/tone concentric or drilling, limited settings to 6)

Concentric knob options:

- Fender Jazz Bass knobs
- Aftermarket vintage style (large bottom)
- Aftermarket thin style
- Warmoth
- Thin style or this one from Allparts (both need metric pots)

To be cont...

[cc9cii]

Then there are additional frills:

+ add a toggle to enable/disable blend circuit?
+ use push-pull rather than toggle?
+ use S1 rather than above?
+ allow blending of bridge pickup as well? toggle between the two?
+ out of phase option?

[cc9cii]

First version of the circuit. With this one, the concentric pot needs to be modded (with some enamel) to make it no-load at full position. The cocked wah circuit does not have 3k3 + 0.01uF. Also no switch to take out blend circuit (decided to keep it simple).

The resistor across the blend pot is approx. 500k (e.g. 2x 1M in parallel). I may change the value after some experimentation.



Not tested yet, so YMMV. Once I get the parts and have it tested, I'll post the impressions.

[cc9cii]

The look will be something like this, but with different knobs.

[cc9cii]

Minor tweaking plus flipped the direction of the blend knob - now turning CW yields more brighter tone (i.e. bridge pickup) and CCW blends more of the neck.



WARNING: Still untested.

[cc9cii]

A complicated (greedy?) version.



With this one, pulling the vol knob out gives "modern" wiring for parallel and series without any blending or 15k in the circuit. Push the vol knob for "vintage" flavour. Once more: untested, so I don't know if this push-pull will make any difference to the tone at all

[cc9cii]

This version is a simplified one. No concentric pots or 5 way superswitch. That means features have to go.

But the Nocaster blend is still there, so is series neck+bridge as well as tone control option.

Position : push : pull
1. bridge : tone : tone bypass
2. series : tone : tone bypass
3. parallel : tone : neck blend
4. neck : tone : tone bypass

So, this arrangement buys Nocaster blend but loses parallel no-tone (compared to a normal 4-way wiring with a no-load tone pot).

Compared to the complex circuit, this one doesn't have:

= no cocked-wah
= no tone with cocked-wah (this is probably a useless setting, anyway)
= no neck blend in series position
= no tone with parallel neck blend (probably not so useful)
= no tone bypass with parallel position

[cc9cii]

I can't leave well enough alone Another version that turns the tone pot into a blend pot for one of the switch positions. This time cocked-wah added. Either push-pull pots or toggles can be used. I think push-pull pots would be better.



I don't know if these will add usable sound/tone.... yet. Can't wait for the parts to arrive!

[cc9cii]

More tweaking, made the default push-pull positions a little more natural.

Also deleted a couple of older versions in order to reduce confusion. Not sure if photobucket will continue to serve these deleted images for a while yet.

[cc9cii]

Didn't like v3 since tone couldn't be used with cocked-wah. (v3 deleted) This v4 allows tone to be engaged (still disables blend if selected).

[cc9cii]

The parts are in finally. Built v3 of the complicated one with 5 way switch. The 5 way with 2 wafers is about 20mm wide, so I figured that it will fit (tightly) in a cavitiy 1" width.

What I didn't measure was between the center of the switch to the edge. There is no way this thing's going to fit without some woodwork! And I only found out after I built the whole wiring harness

Lots of other little problems:

- Fender push-pull 250k pot (PN 099-2257-000) is linear. Ok for tone, but not for volume. However an aftermarket one (EP 0285-000) is audio taper. They are cheaper, too, but they don't come with extra nut, which is required to mount it at the right height.

- The push-pull pot mounting hole size is too small for the control plate. Had to make a bush using a small length of thin steel wire.

- The push-pull pots have "loose" feel to them. Easy to turn, but I'm not sure if I like my pots too loose

- The bottom knob of Fender stacked knob set (PN 0049457) shaft hole is a tad under 1/4" while the stacked pot is just a little over. Had to drill/file the knob to make it fit. The upper knob (PN 0049458) fits fine.

- The knobs have different knurl sizes compared to Nocaster. The upper stacked knob is too small in comparison to the bottom counterpart (to me, anyway)

- The switch screws have philips head, while the rest of the guitar have slotted screws. (I kept the original wiring harness intact and put away - in case I wish to put it back in)

- All the pots have different taper, even among the audio taper ones.

[cc9cii]

It doesn't fit, but since I built it, I took some time testing various switch positions and the blend functions.

The good:

- The cocked-wah sound is awesome! One can definitely hear the funky tone.

- The blend circuit works for both parallel and series position.

The bad:

- The switch arrangements are not very intuitive or practical.

- The blend function range of tone change is not alot. Basically goes from neck+bridge (semi bright) to bridge (bright). It would be better to go from neck -> neck+bridge -> bridge. I must check out how to work the blend/fader pot into this circuit.

Other results:

- I used a temporary toggle to simulate no-load tone pot. I can't hear the difference when the tone pot is engaged (at wide open position) and when it isn't.

- If the blend pot is left at 500k (actually 443k) the blend actually works across a wider range of tones. But that just give me more range of brightness on an already bright sounding guitar. Plus I want to keep the Nocaster with a Nocaster blend circuit component values. So I put 2x 1M across the pot.

[cc9cii]

The blend functions are ok, but not super cool. But since they work, I wish to keep them.

I realised that sharing one pot as tone and blend using a push-pull won't be user-friendly. So back to using a concentric pot. Just have to work out a better looking knob combination.

The final decision is whether to keep neck blend for series position vs cocked wah. The push-pull vol pot can only support one of the two. In the end I've decided to go with the blend. This version of the circuit is not perfect - with only a 2 pole 4 position switch and a DPDT push-pull, had to make some compromises. The compromise: engaging it while in parallel position doesn't work very well.

I may get sick of it and go back to having cocked-wah instead.

Anyway, the latest circuit is this. It fits fine

[Swiftpicx]

Thanks Again !

[mynameis905]

Am I missing something?
why is every schematic I find of any Telecaster have the switch "backwards" compared to any switch I can buy???

Can someone please provide me with a GOOD schematic/diagram for a No-Caster (blend circuit).

I have spent nearly $20 on a cap and a resistor and I only want to solder them once...

any help??????

Jack

[cc9cii]

How about this one?

[braderrick]

Originally Posted by mynameis905

Am I missing something?
why is every schematic I find of any Telecaster have the switch "backwards" compared to any switch I can buy???

Can someone please provide me with a GOOD schematic/diagram for a No-Caster (blend circuit).

I have spent nearly $20 on a cap and a resistor and I only want to solder them once...

any help??????

Jack

Welcome Jack, the construction company I used to work for did some work in your town at the airforce base (arnold maybe) so I've spent some time there. Welcome and let us know how your project works out.

[cc9cii]

Here are some of the alternatives I've been trying out.

Some of the pots are linear, and would work better with a custom log taper. The pots are connected such that, where it makes sense, clockwise turn results in 'brighter' tone (i.e. more bridge pickup). That's not really practical with the 'Strat style' blend circuit.

[cc9cii]

Here are some others with bridge and neck in series.

[cc9cii]

Current projects:

[cc9cii]

This is what I had to do to fit a 4P5T (2 wafer) superswitch without routing the body. I made a few out of some aluminium sheet offcuts.



EDIT: can't spell 'mode' should be 'mod'

[cc9cii]

If the blend pot works out ok (still waiting from a vendor, whom I won't name yet, after 5 weeks! ) the circuit will look like this. The extra resistors are meant to provide constant load (where possible) of 250k. The 333k shoud read 330k...



The trouble with this circuit is the placement of pots, as there are 3 of them now. Unfortunately I can't find a concentric pot with 1M log taper.

EDIT: have to get my head around to see if the use of 1M pot has any implicatons with cable / amp interaction.

EDIT2: while the extra resistors helped with DC load, didn't work very well with AC response... pulled the diagram, back to the drawing board

[MikeMurray]

Really interesting thread!! Will read through it carefully and take a look again later (Varsity work - so really busy)

[cc9cii]

Here is an updated circuit, did some spice simulation (thanks to tdowns's article) and added a treble bleed circuit to compensate for the splitting of the resistive load.

[Swiftpicx]

Thanks for the reference to " Tdowns" article
Would you please simpfly this diagram for us .

Thanks

Steve

[cc9cii]

Originally Posted by Swiftpicx

Would you please simpfly this diagram for us .

Not ready for wiring diagram just yet

Need more simuation and testing, otherwise everyone will have to re-wire once it is finalised.

[fernando]

Extremely interesting, go on!

I'll tell you about my experience when I have a while

[fernando]

did you get to any conclusion? (a wiring that sounds good and it's nice to operate)

I'm thinking about the wiring for my new guitar (a 56ish looking blond Tele)
One idea would be to use an S-1 switch on the vol cont. and a push-pull on the tone ctl. so I can use a normal 3 way selector and have series and phase inversion

Another one would be to use a 5 way switch and normal pots and have series and paralel out of phase on the selector

But I'll try the traditional blend wiring first since I never used it before. If I like it I'll try to add series and controlled out of phase in some way but trying to stay with a 3 way switch. I have a 4 way switch on another guitar, I like it's functionality but I miss a simpler 3 way: not having a central position unbalance my mind in some way :P

[Swiftpicx]

"I like it's functionality but I miss a simpler 3 way: not having a central position unbalance my mind in some way"

I noticed as the night go's on, I tend to lean one way or the other while playing, & the 4 way switch seems to center itself just fine

Would like to hear from CC, if anythings up & running ( a brisk walk about will do also )

Steve

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by cc9cii

Minor tweaking plus flipped the direction of the blend knob - now turning CW yields more brighter tone (i.e. bridge pickup) and CCW blends more of the neck.



WARNING: Still untested.

Marvelous work you're doing. A couple questions, if I may?

1) Did this one get built or tested?

2) What value cap did you have in mind in the upper right hand portion of the diagram?

Oh, is it 0.0047uf?


Much obliged!

[cc9cii]

Boris:

The cap is 0.0047uF. That circuit did get built, but since pulled apart to become something else. The main issue with that version was the limited range of blend (neck only) and also I didn't like the sound I got from position 2 (not as much the one with extra cap & resistor).

fernando and Swiftpicx:

I've built yet another variant using a blend pot (which finally came after almost 2 months of waiting). Initially I compared v5b and v6 (not shown, using a pan pot) in series blend. I'm rather disappointed in the outcome - using a specialized blend pot didn't result in a better blend control. In fact I couldn't hear any difference between the two circuits after a few hours of A/B testing (I used a 4 pole toggle to switch between the two variants).

In fact the blend concept in bridge/neck series position needs to be reviewed. The tone and volume changes are such that turning the pot doesn't "feel" like blending at all. I've got an idea of how to keep the output volume constant, but at the cost of making the max volume (i.e. both neck & bridge at full) lower. I'll try to draw this up (not tested yet).

Currently experimenting with a variant of the original Nocaster blend circuit, but with a blend pot so that both neck and bridge can be blended. It works ok but the range is limited with a 500k pot. I'll see what 250k will do.

[Swiftpicx]

As Always CC

Thank You !!

[fernando]

cc9cii, I have two vol ctls in Fronia (my natural Tele) and when in series I can get a good variety of sounds. But it's not a drastic timbre change, it just let you build different shades of the series combination, nice
After using Fronia for almost 2 years, I think that's an important distinction: very different sounds available inmediately (usually a switch) AND shades of a sound by means of finely adjusting other controls... (usually a pot)
When testing circuits, notable changes are easy to isolate and judge but the other type need to be used for a while to see if it's interesting

[Peter Rabbit]

Hey CC, here's a thought I had about my tele - I was thinking of flipping the control plate end-for-end, having the volume on the neck-most end, a blend pot in the middle (where the tone is now), and convert the 3-way to a multi-tone control, with 3 different resistor values, or even changing to a 5-way tone switch with 5 resistors. What do you think?

Peter

[cc9cii]

Originally Posted by fernando

cc9cii, I have two vol ctls in Fronia (my natural Tele) and when in series I can get a good variety of sounds. But it's not a drastic timbre change, it just let you build different shades of the series combination, nice
After using Fronia for almost 2 years, I think that's an important distinction: very different sounds available inmediately (usually a switch) AND shades of a sound by means of finely adjusting other controls... (usually a pot)
When testing circuits, notable changes are easy to isolate and judge but the other type need to be used for a while to see if it's interesting

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm always torn between having variety and keeping things simple (and therefore fast to select). I think having a "preset" blend will allow me to have a favorite blend setting and still get there fast.



I've placed a blend pot between volume and tone in that pic. It is held internally using a piece of aluminium bracket. The knob (and the switch tip) is from a Jazz Bass (I believe).

[cc9cii]

The current circuit is this one (gone back to simpler 4 way).



Wired this way.



I've actually used a Bourns premium pot for the volume, which turns out to be 300k (meant to be 250k, but perhaps QA isn't so good at Bourns.

With the tone control, I've initially had the 'Greasebucket' setup, but it doesn't suit this guitar (I think it interferes with the 'cocked-wah' somehow). Greasebucket is a little too bright, anyhow. My guitar is too bright as it is, so back to a normal tone circuit with a larger cap.

EDIT: after some testing, 330k blend is almost as bad (in terms of limited range) as 500k. I think I'll have to try 250k to see if it improves.

The 'cocked-wah' only sounds good with the bridge pickup, IMHO. YMMV.

[cc9cii]

Originally Posted by Peter Rabbit

Hey CC, here's a thought I had about my tele - I was thinking of flipping the control plate end-for-end, having the volume on the neck-most end, a blend pot in the middle (where the tone is now), and convert the 3-way to a multi-tone control, with 3 different resistor values, or even changing to a 5-way tone switch with 5 resistors. What do you think?

Peter

Not a bad idea. There was a thread a little while ago where someone used a 12 way rotary to get a variety of tones. With a blend pot, you can easily go between neck, neck+bridge and bridge (but I couldn't do that in the middle of a song, I'm too busy concentrating trying to hit the right note ). It would be something like this, I guess. That is essentially how I've been testing my 'series' blend, with a 500k linear pot.

EDIT: found the thread about stellartone

[fernando]

I think a versatile but intuitive set up would be: a 5 way switch includding the 3 usual Tele sounds plus series and parallel cont. out of phase. Then a push pull on the tone pot to use a conventional tone cap or an inductor system like Bill Lawrence's Q-filter.
That's 10 sounds plus all the different shades of the tone/Qfilter control plus the known effect of the volume pot.
I would place the traditional combinations on their traditional places (extremes and center): bridge, cont. out of ph., parallel, series, neck.

I will implement this circuit in Fronia once I install the Keystones pup set I just received (and once I manage to buy a Q-filter from Bill and Becky - Bill, get better!)