audiophile wire inside a guitar

[jivetrain]

i finished a few audiophile amp kits a while ago and had some extra fancy silver-plated teflon wire left over that i wasn't doing anything with. my MIM 72' deluxe had a wire with a similar gauge carrying the guitar's signal from the selector switch to the output jack; knowing how low the quality of electronics in the MIM fenders can be, i couldn't resist the temptation to replace it with the good stuff.

last night i finally did it, and surprisingly enough it made a difference; the sound is smoother and clearer, particularly in the bass, as well as being a bit brighter. i'm not sure if it's actually better yet, but it did make a difference every bit as noticeable as upgrading from a cheap cord to a good one. it makes me wonder why this subject doesn't ever come up on this forum, where people take joy in obsessing over every little detail of their guitars. has anyone else tried something like this?

[jeremyb]

Change it back and see if you notice ;)

[Oldschoolwax]

I actually used to wire recording studios, so I always use shielded Mogami cable to the output jack, just for grins in some of the long runs most guitar compainies use more than bare wire, though I've seen it. I think it really depends on the size of the run, the Tele Deluxe and Custom 72 is a long one so it wouldn't surprise me really, though the MIJ came with a fairly nice piece of wire in it already.

`Michael

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by jeremyb

Change it back and see if you notice ;)

i always try to get clear before and after recordings when i do things like this to make sure there's really a difference, plugging directly into my console to avoid the inconsistencies of tube amps. i can go back and forth and usually hear what's changed after a few listens. it's a pretty quick and reliable way to know if there's really a difference or if you're just full of it.

the changes are subtle in the mids and treble, but the bass obviously sounds different. i didn't think there would be much impact since the cheap original wires that carry the signal from the pots to the switch are still there, but lo and behold even just partially rewiring the guitar can make a difference. and why wouldn't it? if replacing the cord going to the amp can improve the sound, why wouldn't the internal wiring benefit from the same upgrades? it's not like the quality of the signal begins to matter only after it's left the guitar.

[olaftheholy]

I've been tinkering with the idea of having a topnotch Esquier wired up with goldwire hardlines (no shielding)

[garymaddox]

So what guage wire should one use inside an electric guitar?

I will never argue against using the best quality components you have at hand, but the main reason a cheap cable makes such a difference is the length of it. The distance between pots or the jack are very short.

[DocG]

Considering how inexpensive a few inches of good wire is, you might as well use it if you have it on hand or you can get a little bit of it. But there's a lot more to be gained by shielding the guitar than there is by using premium wire. There's a good tutorial here.

Speaking of which, I was looking at a Musician's Friend catalog and noticed the Monster instrument cables, one for rock and one for jazz. So I called Monster Cables and asked which cable was best for folk. The phone drone hemmed and hawed. I asked him which was more accurate, the rock or the jazz cable. He said he'd have an engineer call me back. I'm not saying the cables are bad - they're good, if overpriced - but selling different cables for different kinds of music is total BS and snake oil.

[originalmatthew]

I'm sure we could quibble all day long wether you can audibly tell the difference between different grades of wire inside the guitar. In the electrical world, less resistance=less signal degridation. I was lucky enough to score a roll of vintage .22 ga. silver wire (not the tinned copper, but real silver wire) and maybe my ears are shot, but I "think" I can hear a difference between the silver wire and the cheap thin stuff used today. Of course, it could all just be in my mind, but silver wire has a certain cool factor. I agree that shielding is far more important to sound quality (ie, reducing hum and such) than the wire is. The pots, switches, and especially the pickups are still what they are. Maybe we could get pots and switches with silver or gold contacts?!?!?! I wonder what pups wound with fine silver wire would sound like? Might be an interesting experiment, but even then, resistance is resistance. How many Henries does it take to make a Hank? I dunno. I'm sure a fancy machine could actually measure the difference. I just know I either like a sound or I dont. :o)

[BritishBluesBoy]

Did you change the strings at the same time?

[jivetrain]

Originally Posted by garymaddox

the main reason a cheap cable makes such a difference is the length of it. The distance between pots or the jack are very short.

the 70's reissues with upper bout selector switches have a 20" wire going to the output; in a normal tele i'm not sure if there's any comparable length of wire. in a standard tele i probably wouldn't bother fiddling with it.

i tried to make sure the length of the new wire was exactly the same as the old one, just in case the capacitance could be changed or something like that. maybe people don't mess with their internal wiring for fear of altering the capacitance with different wire lengths or gauges, i don't know how sensitive the electronics inside the guitar are to these sorts of changes...

i used the same strings i had before after rewiring. one of the great benefits of slotted tuners...

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

...... it makes me wonder why this subject doesn't ever come up on this forum,................

jivetrain,
I must respectfuly disagree. The reason why it does not come up is because it does not make a difference. I don't doubt you heard something different, but it wasn't because your changed the properties of wire in your guitar. There is nothing about the wire in a guitar that can have any effect whatsoever, unless there was a bad connection of some type.

In a guitar-to-amp cable, the center conductor is in close proximity to ground for a considerable distance, and the cable will add capacitance to the pickup load. The longer the cable, the more capacitance. It will slightly shift the resonance between the pickup's inductance with the cable/amp capacitance.

With 3 decades of electronics engineering behind me, I will be glad to explain why any material properties of internal guitar wiring is completely negligible.

With respect and love,
Terry

[bradpdx]

Sorry friend, but I just don't buy it. There is no mechanism that would explain ANY change in response due to wires in a setting like this - none whatsoever. I know that this stuff is sold with various semi-magic properties, but as there is absolutely no way to design wire that would change anything in the audio range outside of the most extreme cases (e.g., cables that are hundreds of feet long, etc.). And if you can't design it, you can't build it - you can only talk about it.

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by originalmatthew

I'm sure we could quibble all day long wether you can audibly tell the difference between different grades of wire inside the guitar. In the electrical world, less resistance=less signal degridation. I was lucky enough to score a roll of vintage .22 ga. silver wire (not the tinned copper, but real silver wire) and maybe my ears are shot, but I "think" I can hear a difference between the silver wire and the cheap thin stuff used today. Of course, it could all just be in my mind, but silver wire has a certain cool factor. I agree that shielding is far more important to sound quality (ie, reducing hum and such) than the wire is. The pots, switches, and especially the pickups are still what they are. Maybe we could get pots and switches with silver or gold contacts?!?!?! I wonder what pups wound with fine silver wire would sound like? Might be an interesting experiment, but even then, resistance is resistance. How many Henries does it take to make a Hank? I dunno. I'm sure a fancy machine could actually measure the difference. I just know I either like a sound or I dont. :o)

I’m glad you admit it could be in your mind. Rational thought is always welcome. One would think (as you have) better electrical conductivity of conductors in a guitar would result in fewer losses. That seems perfectly reasonable. They do. But you can’t hear it. Let’s go through an exercise.


How long is the wire in a Tele? Let’s be conservative and say it is 2 feet. Let’s say we used 22AWG copper. The resistance of 22AWG copper is 0.016 ohms per foot. So at 2 feet we have 0.032 ohms.

A typical Tele pickup has 7000 ohms of DC resistance. At 2.3 Henrys of inductance the reactance of the pickup at 1kHz is 14.4k ohms. To keep it simple let’s ignore the typical 160pF of inter-winding capacitance of a Tele pickup and the amp/cable capacitance. The complex impedance of the DC resistance plus the reactance of the pickup inductance is:

Square root (14400^2 + 7000^2) = 16011 ohms impedance

Now let’s add the copper wire resistance. 16011 + 0.032 = 16011.032

(This conservatively ignores the wire from the pots to the jack and the amp cable. Let’s use it up where it impacts the voltage divider of the pots)

Assuming the volume and tone pots are 250.000000000000kohms, and the amp impedance is like a Fender Twin or 1.00000000000 meg ohms , the total load is around:

1/(1/250k + 1/250k + 1/1000k) = 111.1111 kohms

Let’s say the voltage generated in the pickup winding is 100mV. The voltage drop due to the pots and amp as voltage dividers are:

Vout = 100mV(111.111k ohms)/(111.111kohms + 16011.032 ohms) =
0.87404990505501044854286155526526 mV

ENTER SILVER WIRE

The resistance of silver is 95% of copper resistance. So now your 2 feet of wire is:

0.032 ohms x 0.95 = 0.0304 ohms

Let plug the new low resistance of silver into the equation.

Vout = 100mV(111.111k ohms)/(111.111kohms + 16011.0304 ohms) =
0.8740499160560921940718152657826 mV

The output with silver wire is 1.26 millionths higher or 10.9 millionths of a dB !!!!




Ok. I got a little crazy with the precision of the numbers, but I did it to prove a point. Wiring resistance is completely negligible. The variation of tolerance of the potentiometers is orders of magnitude more significant than wire resistance. Notice I assumed the volume and tone pots were at 250.000000k ohms. They are never close. Most pots measure closer to 240K ohms.

I can address the capacitance part of the effect later if anyone cares.

I don’t intend to come across in a negative way here. Electronics engineering is not common knowledge, and one would expect silver wire to be better because is it lower resistance. It’s just so completely negligible in guitars, unless of course you can hear 10.8 millionths of a dB.

[jivetrain]

ha! that settles it then. i was very aware that any changes could be due to cable length or gauge rather than quality, but because the gauge is the same and i was careful to cut it the same length i figured it may be the fanciness of the wire making the difference. what impact does the length have then? am i right in assuming that a shorter wire may have caused the increase in brightness that i hear, or is capacitance something that also only matters outside the guitar?

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

...... what impact does the length have then? ........

It doesn't. The difference is like spitting in the ocean. A 7k ohm pickup wound with 40AWG wire has about 6673 feet of wire wrapped around a pickup. That's about 1.25 miles. Two more feet of any gauge will not matter.

Only if the signal wire is very close to the ground for a long distance (like a guitar cord) will it impact capacitance.

[jivetrain]

thanks for the responses tdowns, i was hoping you'd chime in at some point. in light of the info you've given i admit that audiophiling up a guitar is a silly prospect, but i still don't know why the sound has changed (listening as skeptically as possible today i still do hear a clear difference). is there any plausible reason off the top of your head as to how swapping one 22 gauge 300v wire for another like this could impact the sound? (preferably one that doesn't involve me having my head up my rear. but if you have to, tell it like it is )

[olaftheholy]

Terry, it's a mojo issue isn't it?

[mlove3]

"selling different cables for different kinds of music is total BS and snake oil. "

and I wish I'd have thought of it first, I'd gladly make money from people who are foolish enough to buy them.

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by jivetrain

thanks for the responses tdowns, i was hoping you'd chime in at some point. in light of the info you've given i admit that audiophiling up a guitar is a silly prospect, but i still don't know why the sound has changed (listening as skeptically as possible today i still do hear a clear difference). is there any plausible reason off the top of your head as to how swapping one 22 gauge 300v wire for another like this could impact the sound? (preferably one that doesn't involve me having my head up my rear. but if you have to, tell it like it is )

Two things come to mind.

1. You could have fixed a previous bad connection when replacing the wiring, like a bad solder joint.
2. Anytime you remove strings and replace them, there is a chance they will sound different. If the windings are worm where the strings contact the saddles, going back on could change their sound some.