Capacitor Upgrades - Myth?

[PJ]

I'm doing some rewiring and wanted to log-in with the team on upgrading capacitors. I see Jensen caps selling for $20 bucks. Orange drops for $7.00 and the flat-film caps are 5 in a bag at the dollar store. (not really, but they're cheap). Cap upgrades...worthwhile or witchcraft?

[KevinB]

Where's that picture of worms in a can again?

[JohnnyCrash]

This usually gets heated.

I think for the most part there is no difference OR it is so barely audible it can be attributed to either A) being real, or B) being in one's head.

What I think doesn't matter - do what you feel is best for your guitar/tastes and wallet.

[rangercaster]

i always thought that as long as the specs are within the correct range, there shouldn't be an audible difference ...

[tazzboy]

Get Paper in Oil caps they are the best.

[PCR985]

I think the only person who can answer this is the person who's footin the bill.

My suggestion is to wire up long leads to the harness, then get a bunch of cheap caps in different ranges. Find the value you like the best, then get a couple of different caps in the same value but different types. A/B them with clips, then buy the one you like best.

Personally, I have PIO's in my guitars because I like the way the sound when I A/B them. Plus, considering how much I've spent on my guitars, pickups, and etc. $15 isn't going to make a whole lot of difference. (if it came down to a $15 difference on your favorite amp, would you pass it up?)

IMHO

[Astro1176]

Originally Posted by PCR985

My suggestion is to wire up long leads to the harness, then get a bunch of cheap caps in different ranges. Find the value you like the best, then get a couple of different caps in the same value but different types. A/B them with clips, then buy the one you like best.

+1. The cap mod and experiment is cheap and if you can solder, easy. If you have a lot of guitars, and they all need that 0.5% better, it's worth investigating.

I love what the standard cap does on my tele, which I believe is a 0.05 ceramic - supposedly the 'worst' sort. I use it a lot. On my Strat, a no-load pot was a huge benefit when the pot was set to brightest; changing the value from .033 to .022 made a great change, but I haven't decided if this is exactly the best thing in this guitar. I have a test rig, just need to get a few more caps to test now.

[Parma_TeleMon]

I've been happy swapping an .033 Orange Drop for the old .047 green chicklet which replaced an .033 ceramic. Might just be I didn't like the .047 much, but the OD really seems to work.

Then again, my brain has made my ears hear all sorts of stuff over the years!

[tonymich]

I hope you are getting at least 15 caps for that $20. I've been in electronics for 35 years and if you are paying $15 or $20 a cap, PLEASE let me sell them to you. Jenson, Sprague, they're all the same. A little marketing BS goes a long way.

[surfoverb]

I use a Mojotone PIO, around $4.

I also have a Jensen PIO I got free from Angelas.

I just like the way they look.

I wouldn't pay $20 for one.

[tazzboy]

There is a web site that I am going to check out called http://www.rutubes.com they get the Russian Paper in Oil caps very cheap that are Military Grade top of the line and see how good they are.

[surfoverb]

Originally Posted by tazzboy

There is a web site that I am going to check out called http://www.rutubes.com they get the Russian Paper in Oil caps very cheap that are Military Grade top of the line and see how good they are.

Those are cheap @ $2.20 for a .022 and have a tighter tolerance than the mojotone @ 10%. (Mojotone are 20%) I might pick one up, thanks!

[chisa]

your pots will make more of an audible difference. fwiw i use both orange drops and chocolate drop type caps and don't hear any difference.

[homerzeppelin]

Email Mythbusters

[tazzboy]

Originally Posted by surfoverb

Those are cheap @ $2.20 for a .022 and have a tighter tolerance than the mojotone @ 10%. (Mojotone are 20%) I might pick one up, thanks!

Yeah but will warn you that they straight out of Russia themselves so you are going to probably pay $10 to $14 in shipping, Just let you know ahead of time.

[Old Cane]

How many orange drops for $7? Geez, Louise.

[surfoverb]

Originally Posted by tazzboy

Yeah but will warn you that they straight out of Russia themselves so you are going to probably pay $10 to $14 in shipping, Just let you know ahead of time.

oh, well...forget that! lol

Damn a friend of mine went to Russia for a year, instead of bringing back Vodka I should have told him to bring a big box of caps. Now the Vodka is all gone and I have no caps.

[musicalmartin]

I put better quality caps in my Dot and I could hear an immediate improvement when I picked it up ......Couldnt when I plugged it in, but acoustically they are great.
Frankly I just dont really believe they can possibly make much difference but like any religion ,tone is down to personal belief.

[Big Tony]

Probably...

There will be a diff between any two caps, due to shifting values (depending on tolerance), so experiment.

Let a friend help you make a blind test. Let your ears decide.

It's not a lot of money, considering, so if you think they look cool: Let there be fancy caps!

(But $20 for a tone cap in a guitar is just silly; that's a rip-off!)

/ Tony

[LocustPlague]

So many other upgrades can make a much larger difference in your sound. The way you pick the strings, the position in which you pluck the strings, etc. The big bonus is that many of the upgrades are free!

[Goluphi]

Changing actual pot/capacitor values will make more a difference than spending $20 on a single capacitor. However, from what I've read, the different types of caps respond differently (from a purely electrical standpoint) to how they store a charge. Whether this reflects a difference in tone, debatable. One thing is not debatable, however: paper in oil caps just plain look cooler.

[LocustPlague]

Originally Posted by Goluphi

Changing actual pot/capacitor values will make more a difference than spending $20 on a single capacitor. However, from what I've read, the different types of caps respond differently (from a purely electrical standpoint) to how they store a charge. Whether this reflects a difference in tone, debatable. One thing is not debatable, however: paper in oil caps just plain look cooler.

While this is true for some applications, for the types of signals present in a guitar, this is not really of any sort of consequence. Think of it as the difference between two different drill bits. One is a typical run of the mill hss bit, the other is an industrial diamond carbide tipped all sorts of ridiculous special polished whatevers...now imagine you are drilling a twinkie. The frequencies and voltages at which the guitar is operating are just nowhere near the threshold for the differences to matter.

[Paul in Colorado]

I have fancypants caps in my H6 Les Paul, but mostly because I replaced the pots and got the caps at the same time. The stock pots were linier taper, so maybe having audio taper pots made a bigger difference. All I know is that the new pots and caps respond like the ones in my '66 Epi Riviera and that was the goal.

On other guitars I've replaced ceramic caps with green chicklet caps or better. I don't know if they sound different, but they make me feel better somehow.

[LocustPlague]

I should add: the ceramic caps actually DO have a different frequency response than the others. They tend to be a bit ice-picky and really push the higher frequencies at the expense of the mids and lows. This can sound quite harsh. Anything above the green "chiclet" caps (which are poly caps) is just throwing money at a tiny improvement.

[tonymich]

It's the value of the caps that do the trick. .05ufd in a typical standard tele. You go between a .068 and maybe a .022ufd. Tolerance? 10%. 20%. When you're talking .05ufds, come on. + or - 10 or 20 percent it going to be hard to tell. You're just adjusting the amount of high frequency your tone control is going to cut. I would play with values if you really want to play around rather than what that cap is made of. 99 cents max.

[tdowns]

I always dread getting into this, but here goes.

The capacitor thing IS A MYTH. I could write a book on it, but I'll only summarize here.

1. Capacitor Doesn’t Contribute Much - Probably most significant misunderstanding about the tone network is that the capacitor is not a significant part of the circuit until you are near the most counterclockwise (CCW) range of the pot. Here's why. A resonance occurs between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup/cable/amp. It generally occurs in the treble region, especially on Teles with single coils. Check the plot below.



I believe I did this PSPICE simulation with a Tele bridge pickup, 500K pots, 10ft cable, and a Fender Twin input impedance. This family of curves is the frequency response of the guitar at the various 10 dial positions of the tone pot. Notice each curve has the dial position/resistance of the audio taper tone pot. Notice the resonance hump at the high dial positions is at about 3.4kHz. That's the Tele treble most of us love. With the tone pot at max, the resistance of the pot is 442kohms (this comes from actual test data I took on a 500K Alpha pot), well within the 20% tolerance. The reactance of a 0.05µF capacitor at above a few hundred Hertz is practically zero. It is only a few kohms down at 100Hz. So, the capacitor is just a low impedance coupling cap to a variable resistor. As you turn the pot down, the load that the pickup sees is a lower resistance. This damps out the resonance. The resistive load of the tone pot as it is turned down is a RESONANCE KILLER. Notice it doesn’t shift the resonance frequency. Guess what, it takes capacitance to do that!!
As the tone pot approaches max CCW, the tone network is now purely capacitive and the resonance is back, but now at 300Hz (dial at zero).

If you use the tone pot at max CCW, then the capacitor makes a big difference. It decides where that low frequency resonance occurs. If you only turn down the tone pot slightly to lets say to remove the "icepick", then the pot is what's accomplishing that for you.

Prove it to yourself. If you slightly roll off highs with a tone pot, open your control cavity and use a clip lead and SHORT OUT YOUR TONE CAP. You won't be able to hear much difference in the tone pot's operation until it is turned down fairly low. At max CCW of course the signal is shunted to ground and nothing comes out.

2. Capacitor Types - As mentioned earlier with the twinkie analogy, the amplitude and frequency range of a guitar signal poses no challenge for any capacitor (except for a polarized cap). One of the reasons why ceramics get a bad rap is because many of the Fenders come with a the 503Z.



This a 0.05µF ceramic that has a tolerance of -20% to +80%. The actual capacitance of this part could be as high as 0.09µF !!! They are used because they are cheap. If you like using your tone control near max CCW, and you change that cap out with a tighter tolerance 0.05µF, you will hear a difference. It's only the capacitance value that matters, and that only matters in the lower fourth of the tone pot's range.

3. Psychoacoustic effects - Anyone that cares about what something sounds like will be a tinkerer. I have chased my tail on many things. It is easy to convince your mind that a changed part will affect the sound of something. It is only natural and normal. I'd venture to say that some of the folks that think they can hear the difference in a particular capacitor type (capacitance value being the same) are of a breed of folks that are sensitive to various changes in the acoustic environment and have better senses than I do. I've never understood how anyone could have perfect pitch, but they exist. So, I have no disrespect to any audiophile. I'm just stating the engineering facts.

4. Amplifer Impedance - This isn't mentioned much, but the amplifier input impedance is just like having another tone pot in parallel, although it has no series capacitor. That input impedance is also a resonance KILLER. Also the capacitance of the amp input and cable will shift the resonance. Oh yes, if there is a capacitor on the input of an amplifier, why isn't it paper in oil too?!?!?!?!?

5. Looks Good Under the Hood - If you like the looks of a $60 cap for your vintage vibe, then go for it.

[redstringuitar]

Originally Posted by tazzboy

There is a web site that I am going to check out called http://www.rutubes.com they get the Russian Paper in Oil caps very cheap that are Military Grade top of the line and see how good they are.

Russian paper in oil? Sounds like a KGB kite!

[scooteraz]

Originally Posted by tdowns

I always dread getting into this, but here goes.

The capacitor thing IS A MYTH. I could write a book on it, but I'll only summarize here...


...5. Looks Good Under the Hood - If you like the looks of a $60 cap for your vintage vibe, then go for it.

This is the BEST explanation that has been posted here that I have seen (see above for whole post). Can we make a sticky of it? New category maybe, Telecaster Myths...

[Big Tony]

Thanks, Terry!

That was a great post.

/ Tony

[Brett Valentine]

I have my Tele wired this way. I originally had it wired with a Malllory .0047µF cap. When switched, the signal goes through the cap. With the tone control up full, the sound seems the same as "tone bypassed." As the tone control is rolled back, the signal is filtered through the cap and only the very top end comes off, but at the same signal strength as tone bypassed (stronger than in the conventional tone circuit).

I tried replacing the cap with a similar value Sprague Orange Drop cap, and it yielded a more "subtle," rounder tone as the pot was rolled back. The Sprague got generally darker, but with a less pronounced spike at the same frequency range as the Mallory, which sounded clearer and had a more pronounced, tighter "Q". I replaced the Sprague with another Mallory, and the tone I liked was back again.

The caps do respond differently in and of themselves when the signal runs directly through them. The onset of tone roll off was different with both caps. I haven't done this same test yet for standard tone control configuration yet, but it would be easy to wire an ON/ON mini toggle to the tone control instead of a cap, and solder 2 equal value caps to the switch to determine if there is an audible difference.

Just for a lark, I bought a teflon film V-Cap (expensive) and wired it into my Brian Moore i21, and I could hear a difference that I couldn't completely quantify but I did notice (wasn't really expecting all that much at the time). Tone roll off did seem like it was more gradual, and remained clearer as it got darker.

I will do that test with the next guitar I work on.

By the way, the stock tone cap is still stock. . .

[DocG]

Terry is the man!

Gotta try drilling a Twinkie now!

[tonymich]

But if you still want to buy some $20 caps, PLEASE let me know. A thanks to Terry for saving me a lot of work setting that up myself. Nice display.

[tazzboy]

Originally Posted by Brett Valentine

I have my Tele wired this way. I originally had it wired with a Malllory .0047µF cap. When switched, the signal goes through the cap. With the tone control up full, the sound seems the same as "tone bypassed." As the tone control is rolled back, the signal is filtered through the cap and only the very top end comes off, but at the same signal strength as tone bypassed (stronger than in the conventional tone circuit).

I tried replacing the cap with a similar value Sprague Orange Drop cap, and it yielded a more "subtle," rounder tone as the pot was rolled back. The Sprague got generally darker, but with a less pronounced spike at the same frequency range as the Mallory, which sounded clearer and had a more pronounced, tighter "Q". I replaced the Sprague with another Mallory, and the tone I liked was back again.

The caps do respond differently in and of themselves when the signal runs directly through them. The onset of tone roll off was different with both caps. I haven't done this same test yet for standard tone control configuration yet, but it would be easy to wire an ON/ON mini toggle to the tone control instead of a cap, and solder 2 equal value caps to the switch to determine if there is an audible difference.

Just for a lark, I bought a teflon film V-Cap (expensive) and wired it into my Brian Moore i21, and I could hear a difference that I couldn't completely quantify but I did notice (wasn't really expecting all that much at the time). Tone roll off did seem like it was more gradual, and remained clearer as it got darker.

I will do that test with the next guitar I work on.

By the way, the stock tone cap is still stock. . .

Why not just buy a .010 or .015 cap if want to have more treble?

[Astro1176]

Originally Posted by tdowns

Prove it to yourself. If you slightly roll off highs with a tone pot, open your control cavity and use a clip lead and SHORT OUT YOUR TONE CAP. You won't be able to hear much difference in the tone pot's operation until it is turned down fairly low. At max CCW of course the signal is shunted to ground and nothing comes out.

Great post but I was confused by this bit so I tried it - it just turned the tone pot into a volume put. True it dulls the tone as the signal gets quieter but it cuts everything too.

However I did try a few caps too - not many because I don't have a huge stock - and didn't notice any significant difference between then, andf even different values sounded pretty much of a muchness till they were turned right down, which was your point.

[Brett Valentine]

Originally Posted by tazzboy

Why not just buy a .010 or .015 cap if want to have more treble?

Well, first, it gives me 2 alternate sounds, the regular tone pot with the .05µF cap, tone bypass, and the filter thing which just takes the top off and warms up the tone.

Second, it works out a little different from just more treble. Because the signal path through the .0047 cap is a direct line to the output, the pot rolls only the very top of the treble off to ground, and the signal is stronger as the pot is not in the direct signal path (while the cap is), and does not load down the signal.

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by Brett Valentine

...... Because the signal path through the .0047 cap is a direct line to the output, .....

Not according to your diagram. You have a normal tone circuit, which is shunt to ground and is modified with the switch so it is open, closed, or has a 0.0047µF cap in series with it. The only thing between the signal path (pickup) and the output is the volume control. ?????

[TeleLubber]

This is cool lookin .. got 2 of these free with my purchase of a set of Fralins

Cap_Jensen_Foil.jpg

[Brett Valentine]

Originally Posted by tdowns

Not according to your diagram. You have a normal tone circuit, which is shunt to ground and is modified with the switch so it is open, closed, or has a 0.0047µF cap in series with it. The only thing between the signal path (pickup) and the output is the volume control. ?????

. . .eh???. . .

Oops! You're right. That will teach me to stop doing two things at the same time. You're absolutely right. The signal still flows easier through .0047µF cap and so just the very top end of the signal is rolled off.

[tazzboy]

Is there is there more top end with more zero or less?

[tele0053]

Originally Posted by tdowns

I always dread getting into this, but here goes.

The capacitor thing IS A MYTH. I could write a book on it, but I'll only summarize here.

1. Capacitor Doesn’t Contribute Much - Probably most significant misunderstanding about the tone network is that the capacitor is not a significant part of the circuit until you are near the most counterclockwise (CCW) range of the pot. Here's why. A resonance occurs between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup/cable/amp. It generally occurs in the treble region, especially on Teles with single coils. Check the plot below.



I believe I did this PSPICE simulation with a Tele bridge pickup, 500K pots, 10ft cable, and a Fender Twin input impedance. This family of curves is the frequency response of the guitar at the various 10 dial positions of the tone pot. Notice each curve has the dial position/resistance of the audio taper tone pot. Notice the resonance hump at the high dial positions is at about 3.4kHz. That's the Tele treble most of us love. With the tone pot at max, the resistance of the pot is 442kohms (this comes from actual test data I took on a 500K Alpha pot), well within the 20% tolerance. The reactance of a 0.05µF capacitor at above a few hundred Hertz is practically zero. It is only a few kohms down at 100Hz. So, the capacitor is just a low impedance coupling cap to a variable resistor. As you turn the pot down, the load that the pickup sees is a lower resistance. This damps out the resonance. The resistive load of the tone pot as it is turned down is a RESONANCE KILLER. Notice it doesn’t shift the resonance frequency. Guess what, it takes capacitance to do that!!
As the tone pot approaches max CCW, the tone network is now purely capacitive and the resonance is back, but now at 300Hz (dial at zero).

If you use the tone pot at max CCW, then the capacitor makes a big difference. It decides where that low frequency resonance occurs. If you only turn down the tone pot slightly to lets say to remove the "icepick", then the pot is what's accomplishing that for you.

Prove it to yourself. If you slightly roll off highs with a tone pot, open your control cavity and use a clip lead and SHORT OUT YOUR TONE CAP. You won't be able to hear much difference in the tone pot's operation until it is turned down fairly low. At max CCW of course the signal is shunted to ground and nothing comes out.

2. Capacitor Types - As mentioned earlier with the twinkie analogy, the amplitude and frequency range of a guitar signal poses no challenge for any capacitor (except for a polarized cap). One of the reasons why ceramics get a bad rap is because many of the Fenders come with a the 503Z.



This a 0.05µF ceramic that has a tolerance of -20% to +80%. The actual capacitance of this part could be as high as 0.09µF !!! They are used because they are cheap. If you like using your tone control near max CCW, and you change that cap out with a tighter tolerance 0.05µF, you will hear a difference. It's only the capacitance value that matters, and that only matters in the lower fourth of the tone pot's range.

3. Psychoacoustic effects - Anyone that cares about what something sounds like will be a tinkerer. I have chased my tail on many things. It is easy to convince your mind that a changed part will affect the sound of something. It is only natural and normal. I'd venture to say that some of the folks that think they can hear the difference in a particular capacitor type (capacitance value being the same) are of a breed of folks that are sensitive to various changes in the acoustic environment and have better senses than I do. I've never understood how anyone could have perfect pitch, but they exist. So, I have no disrespect to any audiophile. I'm just stating the engineering facts.

4. Amplifer Impedance - This isn't mentioned much, but the amplifier input impedance is just like having another tone pot in parallel, although it has no series capacitor. That input impedance is also a resonance KILLER. Also the capacitance of the amp input and cable will shift the resonance. Oh yes, if there is a capacitor on the input of an amplifier, why isn't it paper in oil too?!?!?!?!?

5. Looks Good Under the Hood - If you like the looks of a $60 cap for your vintage vibe, then go for it.

Terry,
Thanks for saying that.
I'm certainly no expert on capacitor theory or electronics, but of all the teles, strats, L.P.s vintage or not I've owned over the years (and I've owned a lot) I've never noticed a huge or even noticable tone difference between somewhat comparable capacitor changeouts. I've felt over the years that was one myth that was ready to be put to rest.
That's IMHO of course.
Once again,
Thanks Terry for your Technical Words of Wisdom,