3 saddles to 6 saddles: Increase in the strings spacement?

[Big Alex]

I have a 72 Tele Custom that had the bridge replaced by a vintage Fender with 6 saddles. I don't know if I am too picky but it seems that the E strings (mainly the high E string) seems to be closer to the edge of the fretboard than in my other Fender guitar ( Am. Std Stratocaster), as if the new bridge would have spaced the strings a little. By any means, have you seen this before?

When I make some hammer ons in the first string sometimes the string get out of the neck. I don't think this is a case of neck misalignment since the low E is about the same distance to fretboard edge. Then I started to think about rthe bridge....

[boris bubbanov]

Yeah, that Vintage Strat bridge plate has a wide wide string array, 2 + 7/32nds inches.

An American Standard has the narrowest US string array. Normal vintage Teles fall about halfway between. For this guitar I selected a neck with a wide nut width but kept the string array at the nut at 1 + 3/8ths:



The strings stay on the neck but I wish the array at the bridge (saddle break point) was like other vintage Teles. That's about right.

[Big Alex]

just adding my current bridge.

http://www.musicware.com.br/fender/pontetele.jpg

[boris bubbanov]

Ah, Custom. Sorry about that, I was thinking Deluxe.

The strings on a 6 hammer saddle arrangement are generally almost the same width as the Strat plate I was referring to, about 2 + 3/16ths inches. That's part of why they don't seem to work right since they're jammed into a space intended for the narrower array ( 2.125 inches ) 3 barrel Tele design. The thru holes are 2 + 1/8ths on center on the 6 hammer plate, just like a 3 barrel vintage Fender plate.

I recommend you re-fit a vintage plate with 3 barrels, brass, steel or aluminum (slotted stainless would be stock) and that should get you back where 85 % of us are with the strings over the fretwork. The rest may come down to:

1) Neck alignment;

2) Maybe a nut with a slightly narrower string array.

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by Big Alex

I have a 72 Tele Custom that had the bridge replaced by a vintage Fender with 6 saddles. I don't know if I am too picky but it seems that the E strings (mainly the high E string) seems to be closer to the edge of the fretboard than in my other Fender guitar ( Am. Std Stratocaster), as if the new bridge would have spaced the strings a little. By any means, have you seen this before?

When I make some hammer ons in the first string sometimes the string get out of the neck. I don't think this is a case of neck misalignment since the low E is about the same distance to fretboard edge. Then I started to think about rthe bridge....

I have run into this problem routinely with the 6 saddle vintage style bridge. Here is my fix.....Opposing set screws in each rail...as pictured. The barrels can be finely adjusted left or right and an ancillary benefit to this mod is that the barrels can be locked together....and when locked....each string benefits from 6 times the mass. When locked together the string spacing is also exactly the same...no sloppy gaps. Intonation, and height adjustment must be done before this mod because if the saddles don't catch part of the side of the one next to it....it can't be done. You also need the opposing E's in their final adjusted position to know where to execute the drillings. This works well on the 3 saddle bridge as well. Also pictured is a vintage style 12 string bridge conversion with Gotoh saddles utilizing this mod.

[CDKopf]

Well wouldja look at that...never seen that before...great Idea! Did you do that yourself with a thread tap or buy the bridge like that? looks easy enough to DIY


Mine was doing the same thing..I just filed a little notch in my brass barrel to keep that little E away from the edge

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by CDKopf

Well wouldja look at that...never seen that before...great Idea! Did you do that yourself with a thread tap or buy the bridge like that? looks easy enough to DIY


Mine was doing the same thing..I just filed a little notch in my brass barrel to keep that little E away from the edge

Thanks....I've been doing that mod for years, the bridges don't come that way.....I have seen different inceptions of it and I'm sure others have figured it out on their own. I will add....it IS very easy to do, and conversly.... it IS very easy to screw up.

[Big Alex]

Telesavant,

I was just looking for something to shift the last barrel and you came with that perfect clean and elegant solution.

Congrats. I´ll fix this way in next maintenance

[yegbert]

telesavant,



Brilliant idea!

I was thinking about doing something like that to force the saddles together, but I hadn't figured out a good way how. What thread size set screws did you use?

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by yegbert

telesavant,



Brilliant idea!

I was thinking about doing something like that to force the saddles together, but I hadn't figured out a good way how. What thread size set screws did you use?

The threadsize is 10-32....smaller will work, but the larger the size of the set screw....the more leeway with saddle adjustability up and down and back and forth while still making contact. Remember....adjust and intonate BEFORE you do the mod then mark where to drill and tap. I just cut these to length from a longer screw, and slotted with a .025 dremel wheel....instant set screw.

[yegbert]

I've modified a 6-barrel clone bridge with the set screws like telesavant's. My saddles are stock Fender 6-barrel saddles with 4-40 set screws for saddle height adjustment. I used a couple of those 4-40 set screws for the two screws on the sides.

[boris bubbanov]

Do any of ya'll see any potential in using the locking feature and then just getting rid of the 6 springs? If you could get rid of the springs, it might clean the sound up, some.

This mod might also work better on a .060 thickness plate, such as a G + L plate? I'm afraid the Fender .050 will just bow out on the sides.

[yegbert]

Boris, can you explain your theory that the springs keep the sound from being clean?

My goal is to see if I can get more harmonics like I seem to get with 3 steel saddles, from 6 steel saddles. I think my tone is too clean with the setup already. I'm not sure yet if this is helping, I need to give it some more time.

I don't know whether the force would be enough to eliminate the springs.

I'm using a plate that's at least as thick as, and seems to be stiffer than, any FENDER PAT PEND plate I've tried. It doesn't appear to have become bent when I tightened these screws down, but I've been conservative in tightening them down so far. I don't remember this plate's exact thickness measurements and I can't measure the bottom part now with it installed. I have its' measurements in a post somewhere here. But I agree it makes sense to start with a good stiff plate.

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Do any of ya'll see any potential in using the locking feature and then just getting rid of the 6 springs? If you could get rid of the springs, it might clean the sound up, some.

This mod might also work better on a .060 thickness plate, such as a G + L plate? I'm afraid the Fender .050 will just bow out on the sides.

The mod works fine on any thickness that you can cut a thread in. The original intent for me was to lock the barrels together to increase the masse....multiplying it for each string. The added bonus was it's ability to shift the saddles left or right if needed and THEN lock them in place. Very little force is needed...so the set screws don't have to be tightened inordinately for either benefit...also; I've been doing this mod for years and never had a problem with the side rails of a Fender plate bowing out...it's quite stiff. As far as the springs...theoretically you could remove them, though once the saddles are locked and the springs still under their original tension....they would be rendered moot and shouldn't create any unwanted noise or overtones.

.050" under tension and locked.....no side rail distortion whatsoever....I would add that the lower the threaded drillings are and the larger the set screw....the better.

Nice work Yegbert!!

[boris bubbanov]

Telesavant, I can see your build is not bowing out. But I see on Yegbert's, there is some distortion of the metal there, on the left side wall.

My theory is that a played string vibrates all the way from end to end. We know of cases where we get extraneous noise from North of the nut (D and especially G strings) and I find we get noises, undesirable noises from South of the saddle break point (which is awful close to the bridge pickup). The sound of what I think is the saddle length spring vibrating against the unplucked part of the guitar string is unpleasant to me - as is what I think is the sound of loose saddle height screws where saddles are cocked or canted or leaning on one another.

The process of locking them all together (so well done on the G + L Saddle Lock top loader bridges) should alleviate the height screw problems and should keep saddles from resonating against one another - but it does not address IMO the issue of the string resonating against the intonation or saddle spring.

I'd like to devise a way to just ditch those springs - might solve a lot of residual issues.

++

The other issue is adjustability, to be frank. When I swap parts around, and build and rebuild guitars I find myself setting the saddles higher and higher and higher. The set screw solution is only gonna work if that locking screw is mated with E string saddles that are darned low. I don't jack my saddles up into the stratosphere but there's more than a few of them where I would simply run out of adjustability. I'd have to keep the saddles low - and lower vis a vis one another to make the locking mechanism effective. Would not work well (I wouldn't imagine) on a 7.25 radius necked Telecaster. Cuz at some point the outboard hammer saddles are no longer holding the middle ones in place - they're trying to make them just pop out and fly up.

[telesavant]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Telesavant, I can see your build is not bowing out. But I see on Yegbert's, there is some distortion of the metal there, on the left side wall.

My theory is that a played string vibrates all the way from end to end. We know of cases where we get extraneous noise from North of the nut (D and especially G strings) and I find we get noises, undesirable noises from South of the saddle break point (which is awful close to the bridge pickup). The sound of what I think is the saddle length spring vibrating against the unplucked part of the guitar string is unpleasant to me - as is what I think is the sound of loose saddle height screws where saddles are cocked or canted or leaning on one another.

The process of locking them all together (so well done on the G + L Saddle Lock top loader bridges) should alleviate the height screw problems and should keep saddles from resonating against one another - but it does not address IMO the issue of the string resonating against the intonation or saddle spring.

I'd like to devise a way to just ditch those springs - might solve a lot of residual issues.

++

The other issue is adjustability, to be frank. When I swap parts around, and build and rebuild guitars I find myself setting the saddles higher and higher and higher. The set screw solution is only gonna work if that locking screw is mated with E string saddles that are darned low. I don't jack my saddles up into the stratosphere but there's more than a few of them where I would simply run out of adjustability. I'd have to keep the saddles low - and lower vis a vis one another to make the locking mechanism effective. Would not work well (I wouldn't imagine) on a 7.25 radius necked Telecaster. Cuz at some point the outboard hammer saddles are no longer holding the middle ones in place - they're trying to make them just pop out and fly up.

If your saddles are up past the side rails past the point of catching them with this mod...this mod is the least of your worries. You can do this mod as high on the rails as you want with no rail distortion...Yegberts might be too tight or distorted in the first place from the drilling or clamping methods.....very little tension is needed to lock these saddles.

In describing this mod previously....the guitar should be tuned, intonated and setup BEFORE the mod is attempted and the optimum placement on both sides indicated and set screw size decided on. If a screw doesn't appear that it will catch a saddle then a screw with a head (flat) can be used with the flat head inside the rail and the outside end slotted for adjustability just like the setscrew.

Yes....the whole bridge could be redesigned....but it's a MOD to address a certain malady that plagues a certain type bridge that exists already and people like for a host of other reasons....and takes 10 minutes to do.

This mod works on any radius neck....the only prerequesite is that the saddles "catch" each other....no matter the radius the saddles can be raised or lowered on a level plane and kept level....so other than the intonation being so far afield that the saddles are past the prolongation of their lateral curb lines and don't catch any part of the one next to it....it's a breeze.

Also the other useful by-product of the mod is to shift the saddles left or right as so many of Teles could benefit from due to strings on one side or the other being too close to the side of the fretboard.

Yes....if the set screw is too low the saddles could distort....too high they could also distort.... but remember the strings....on a body thru anyway....are pulling those saddles downward with considerable force....they ain't goin' nowhere. Everything should be adjusted and indicated BEFORE the mod is attempted and the largest setscrew possible used....I use 10-32 and if indicated correctly you could raise the saddles as high as would ever be needed.

As far as the sonic properties of the springs behind the saddles....as I stated....theoretically they can be removed after the mod, though I've never had the need....If they are still under tension....and they should be....they should be quiet. If they rattle....that can be adressed in a host of ways.

I've done hundreds of these mods from back in the '70s with no problems, no rail distortion, no spring rattle, no radius obstructions or any other unforseen problems....and I will add this mod works particularly well with the Gotoh 12 string saddles when mated with the vintage-style bridge. I always thought those saddles were a little anemic sustain-wise and this mod will add a little oomph by locking them together and allow left or right shift if needed. See pic...no rail distortion whatsoever and tons of vertical adjustability and these set-screws could even have been "cut in" higher in the rail if desired or for that matter forward or back if needed.

www.myspace.com/paulmcewen

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Telesavant, I can see your build is not bowing out. But I see on Yegbert's, there is some distortion of the metal there, on the left side wall.

It may appear to be, but it's not bowed out. I've checked the outside with a straight edge. The thickness is uneven on the inside of the wall in places. I didn't tighten them all that much.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by telesavant

If your saddles are up past the side rails past the point of catching them with this mod...this mod is the least of your worries.

I still find myself gasping at how high some guys have their saddles - believe me, mine tend to be quite a bit lower than some of the images you will see here.

And yet I do feel I state a valid concern. The higher up the wall the saddle prefers to be, the less likely this solution will be indelible. But I confess, I was doing the devil's advocate thing. Trying to think out any likely issues I would have. I think the saddle lock approach is the best thing that could happen to a 6 hammer style bridge.

++++++

I apologize, Yegbert. I should know from all the images I post and all the posted feedback - so easy to post an image that shows an "issue" that in reality does not exist.