new Joe Barden bridge for Am Std?!

[yegbert]

I just found this interesting Tele bridge on ebay tonight.

I didn't see anything about it on the Joe Barden website (http://www.joebarden.com/main.php).

I've posted this question to the ebay seller and to the email address supplied on the Joe Barden web site...

Are the outermost two of the four lower screw holes in the position needed for an American Standard Tele? Are the holes for loading the strings from the rear of the guitar body in the position needed for an American Standard Tele?

...because that's what it looks like to me. I've attached pictures here of the new longer bridge and the short vintage-spec bridge available under the same brand from the ebay seller.

[yegbert]

I got this answer from info@joebarden.com:

The New JB Am Std bridgeplate offers the same features as the Joe Barden Vintage bridgeplate but was designed to fit American Std guitars. This bridgplate has 4 mounting screwholes across the back and two smaller holes in front.

The outer two mounting holes line up with the outer holes of a Fender 3 hole Am Std plate.

Unlike the stock Am Std bridgeplate, the JB BP has sidewalls similar to the JB vinatage plate. A scooped sidewall accomodates fingerpicking styles.

The strings load thru the guitar body and emerge in front of the mounting holes,l like the Am Std.

The Joe Barden Am Std Bridgeplate/Saddle kit has 3 compensated brass saddles vs the 6 adjustable steel saddles normally found on stock Am Std bridgeplates.

JBE

[cg73cmc]

He says they're for the 2008 and 2009 American Standard. Why did he limit the fit to those two years only? Is the 2008/09 different from previous year standards?

[robt57]

So to fit the US AM SE is it just the spacing of the middle 2 holes I wonder.

[boris bubbanov]

The priorities on this product are simply crazy.

The plate itself is still objectionably long and thus will always look wrong to me. They had a chance to shorten the plate and they chose not to.

My best explanation for why they singled out the 2008-2009 American Standard is, the small top hole will help the installer with alignment. Anxious American Series owners will take their chances.

So, for an Am Std you gotta drill 2 new holes, for Am Se you gotta drill 4 new holes.

The thing looks stupid, plus the import M3 hardware is still in the wrong lengths.

The silver lining is, markets will flood with the cast off upgraded plates from the American Standard Tele, and I can upgrade my last, mostly stock Am Se. It still looks like this:



because I cannot get the *&*$%^#*&^ stock bridge loose from the poly finish!

[boris bubbanov]

I will bet that is why they made the decision not to shorten the plate. The poly under the old plate can sometimes be marred and a shorter plate would show that. Only 1 of my 4 guitars had that; it was mild but some people would boo-hoo.

Cowardice and blown opportunity.

They could have done this:



but with those 2 reference holes at the top of the Am Std as guides. If a customer can drill 2 holes, he can drill 4 holes. Their plate would not have the excess holes my converted plate would - it would look pretty darned natural on there.

The AV type plate WILL cover all 3 stock AS bottom mount holes. The #1 problem is, Joe Modder would not be able to remember which plate was which and he'd buy the wrong one. Then he'd get on the internet and swear to God and the world the company was screwed and they sold him the wrong part. That's the problem. Maybe if we brass plated them or something.

[boris bubbanov]

Two more problems with the new product.

!) The AmStd mount hole hardware is big; is it not #6? The replacement mount hardware looks delicate by comparison - I wonder if the new screws will strip out, where the hole is reused? Or did Fender downsize the hardware, going from AmSe to Am Std.?

2) The locations they have charted out for the 3 brass saddles is optimistically close to the bottom edge of the new plate. I'm thinking it will intonate properly a good bit North of that - on the bitter edge of the travel of the B-E saddle screw. I had that issue on Squier 51s; I don't think it is fatal, as you can tap out and replace all that cheezy M3 hardware and replace it with 6-32. BUT, the further North the saddles need to go, the worse the whole thing looks.

Look carefully at the distances between the new through holes and the saddle locations on my black guitar. Now, compare that to the projected saddle locations they show on the new Joe Barden product. Issues, my friends, issues.

Thanks Yegbert, this is fun!

[yegbert]

I find it most interesting they didn't retain all 3 original mounting screws at the lower end. IMHO, If they had done that it would have been very competitive with the Glendale hybrid, given the much lower price.

My guess is (if that was a conscious design decision) they wanted to differentiate it from the Glendale and Callaham one additional way. This design gets just a little closer to vintage in appearance. The extra two holes will be very easy to drill (just screw it down using the outer two and it's the template needed for placing the holes!); and they remain hidden if you switch back to the stock bridge.

So it still has what's needed in features to be rather competitive with the Glendale hybrid.

I can see possibilities for tinkering that I like, beyond American Standard and American Series Teles.

I could drill the plate with holes to topload the strings and use it on a '90s Squier, MIM toploader or similar. Those Tele bodies have the 3 mounting screws in the same locations as American Standards.

I could drill the plate with six holes for mounting and adjusting six block saddles and use it on a current production Squier Standard as a convertible 3- or 6-saddle bridge. Those Tele bodies have the string through holes in a location compatible with American Standards.

[yegbert]

In another thread someone posted the Allparts part number for this bridge: TB-5141-001.

Even before I had that part number in hand I had asked a local store that carries Allparts branded products (Hot Licks Guitar in Waldorf, MD) to get one for me if possible. They did, it was in an Allparts package with that part number, and it only cost $50. I just picked up the bridge yesterday.

I plan to put it on a Squier Tele which has compatible string through holes. The current production Squier Standard Series Tele bodies have string through holes that are spaced wider apart and slightly closer to the neck, but they are oversized and should work for this bridge. I've compared this Barden bridge to an American Deluxe bridge and to an American Custom Shop bridge I have, and their string through holes are all located in the same position relative to the pickup hole. And I had mounted that American Custom Shop bridge on the target Squier Tele before and found the string through holes were compatible.

I plan to drill 6 holes in the lower lip of this Barden bridge, and I'll use those holes interchangably for 1) intonation adjustment screws of Gotoh S21 block saddles (10.5mm wide, 20mm long, same as American Deluxe/Series/1st-gen-Standard); and 2) toploader holes when using the bridge with 3 saddles like the Bardens that it came with. So it will be a 3-6 convertible bridge.

These Barden saddles are so tight a fit they splay out slightly, I'll need to take a little material off the inner ends to get them to sit correctly. The brass material looks the same color as the Fender AV '52 Tele brass saddles.

The plate thickness is around 65-70mm.

[boris bubbanov]

I ran the new # TB-5141-001 on the Allparts and AllpartsUK and the webpages don't show it, though they show the price increases. The old Joe Barden I like is # TB-5140-001.

This is a superb post, Yegbert. Any time juices start flowing into an area of interest like this, eventually good things will follow.

I'm encouraged to hear you have found the American Deluxe and Custom Classic bridges close enough in specification to the Squier to permit their use there. Whenever I fitted an American Series plate to a Squier, I was concerned about the fit but on the other hand I had such little use for the American Series part to begin with; I may not have given it a comprehensive enough trial.

Have you thought about positioning the new rear lip screw holes fairly low, one: because string through angles would be better and, two: those holes will be very close in 3 instances to the 3 existing holes further up the lip of the plate. On the other hand, the fasteners on the Gotoh S21 are smaller (M3?) so they're easier to place.

Cool Ideas! :^)

[yegbert]

Given that the S21 saddles have intonation screws centered on the saddles, the horizontal proximity of holes will be fairly even, much the same as what you get when you take a plate made for 6 saddles with that geometry, and drill 3 new holes in between for converting it to a 3-saddle configuration.



Yes, I plan to position them relatively low on the lip for the reasons you stated.

They won't need to be as big, or positioned as high on the lip, as Fender made those on that MIM Std bridgeplate in the picture above.

[yegbert]

I've drilled the 6 new holes in the bridge plate and fitted it with the Gotoh S21 steel saddles:

[yegbert]

I had to remove the saddles to install it so I took a few pics. I got the hole for the 4th string saddle offcenter to the right, so I enlarged it to try to get a better alignment.

[yegbert]

...is that the holes for the pickup mounting/adjusting screws are about 1mm to the left of center. So the polepieces aren't centered well under ythe strings.

[yegbert]

But, it sounds good as is. And now I have a relatively thin steel bridgeplate (not as thin as the modern L-shaped bridgeplates) that I can outfit with either 6 modern block saddles or 3 barrel saddles.

[Gary in Boston]

I wonder,

With all these folks making after market replacement parts for Teles why doesn't Fender just produce things "right" and end it all?

Or do they like the fact that folks buy their guitars and then spend another 100-200$ in upgrades then buy another stock Tele because they miss the original etc etc

Why?

Gary

[robt57]

Originally Posted by Gary in Boston

I wonder,

With all these folks making after market replacement parts for Teles why doesn't Fender just produce things "right" and end it all?

Or do they like the fact that folks buy their guitars and then spend another 100-200$ in upgrades then buy another stock Tele because they miss the original etc etc

Why?

Gary

Well, they sell many levels of the same design, no? US, MIM, Squier etc... Would that be their/the answer ?

[yegbert]

My guess is, Fender isn't banking on making money directly from modders like us making upgrades. After all Fender surely isn't trying hard to supply all the conceivable upgrade parts modders might want.

I suspect Fender believes there isn't a good return on investment in making sure the cheaper brands or models are perfect. In fact they would probably shoot themselves in the foot if they made them all perfect. So they are probably hoping most buyers will perceive that they will get a Tele made more correctly by buying one of the more expensive ones; and so some will buy premium priced Teles initially, while others will buy less premium models and then later buy better ones, and others will just buy less premium ones and stick with them. Fender wants to be able to supply brands and models to sell to all those folks.

[boris bubbanov]

Thanks, again, Yegbert, for a great thread! I always come away with some fresh ideas or insight as to how to better goof around with these guitars.

BTW, for anyone that has not seen either of these current Joe Barden bridges in the flesh, this is a nickel plate, but not only that, it is a fairly strong brown/green tone to it and it is very different in color from the silver blue of most Fender chromed parts. It will have that colored effect even next to bright polished stainless such as Bill Callaham does on his control plates. I'm thinking about buying some nickel plated control plates to go with this product. Either that or dull the Bardens down a bit.

[amileaway]

Very interesting thread; just stumbled upon it since I'm stripping down my 2003 American Series, and tempted to replace the bridge. Even adding a bunch of 623 Project Consultants saddles was tempting, but the Barden includes saddles along with the plate for only a little more.

Surely the Barden bridge would only require the two small holes at the top to be drilled in addition, even on an American Series? I feel that I've missed something out... someone please explain!

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by amileaway

Very interesting thread; just stumbled upon it since I'm stripping down my 2003 American Series, and tempted to replace the bridge. Even adding a bunch of 623 Project Consultants saddles was tempting, but the Barden includes saddles along with the plate for only a little more.

Surely the Barden bridge would only require the two small holes at the top to be drilled in addition, even on an American Series? I feel that I've missed something out... someone please explain!

Your American Series has three screw holes below the saddles, this Barden hybrid has four. Only the outer two are in the same position as yours. You'd need to drill holes in your Tele body for the inner two.

[amileaway]

Thanks!

Yeah, I'm aware of the three holes on my Tele. Could we not get away with simply using the outer holes? Worried about the proximity of those two inner holes to the existing central one.

[yegbert]

I never tried a similar bridge with only two screws, but I did skip using the top two little screw holes on mine. I'd consider it a gamble whether it would be a solid enough install to not create problems.

There should be enough space between the old center screw hole and the two new ones to not cause any problems.

[boris bubbanov]

Using this new Barden model as intended on a new Standard, 2 new holes to go with 4 existing ones;

Using this new Barden model as intended on a old type Am Standard or Am Series, 4 new holes to go with 2 existing ones.

My other concern is the 2 large existing lower holes on an Am Std/Series are BIG and I don't relish putting 2 more big holes that size in the guitar.

[amileaway]

Yeah, that's what I'm worried about. Fine with drilling the two little holes at the top, which should provide some additional support.

So, ultimately, should I buy this? Has anyone else fitted one of these yet?

[johnny guitar]

Well, I just bought an AmSe Tele from '07 and it has Barden pups and the long Barden bridgeplate. I did not do any research on the plate going into it, and had no idea it was longer, had 4 holes, etc. Evidently, the first owner must have drilled four new holes. This is a little irritating since it can never be returned to stock. But the good news is I really like the plate. In fact, I like the length of it. My hand naturally finds more room to rest on the area between the saddles and the back of the plate, whereas on a regular length plate my hand is sort of between the plate and the body. Also, this is one AMAZING sounding tele, so I am delighted with it.

[boris bubbanov]

This new Barden bridge is now listed on the Allparts (Houston) website, so you can ask your friendly local Allparts dealer to order some, should be priced the same as the AV compatible one.

Of all my reservations about using this new body on an existing AS or AD body, my greatest concern is the existing 3 mount hardware was #8 size so you may need to fill and redrill those 2 lower outboard holes for maximum grip.

And be very mindful removing and retightening these elongated plates. The skinny AV plates just bend, but these heavy stock AS plates will embed in the poly and that's what happened on the last of my AS long plate Teles. Part of the poly came off with the stock plate, even though I'd had that plate off before to change pickups. Be careful.

[t2t80]

I just ordered a joe barden vintage style tele bridge last week from all parts and they sent me the american std one by accident. I returned it and got the right one. They also sent me an extra set of joe barden sadles that i didnt order and it wasnt on the order form so i just kept em.

[Eagle]

My head is swimming with all the Partscaster potential foul ups...

[pullchord]

Wow...I just noticed something in one of the pics of the Barden bridge. The front holes (the two at each corner going towards the neck) on that bridge plate have no screw in them. Is this correct? And did I mess anything up by putting screws there? A luthier friend of mine installed my Barden bridge and there were no screws in those front holes. I thought maybe he left them out by mistake.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by pullchord

Wow...I just noticed something in one of the pics of the Barden bridge. The front holes (the two at each corner going towards the neck) on that bridge plate have no screw in them. Is this correct? And did I mess anything up by putting screws there? A luthier friend of mine installed my Barden bridge and there were no screws in those front holes. I thought maybe he left them out by mistake.

The screws to fit those holes were not included in my package. My bridge pictured above seemed like it was solid against the body without them, so I haven't bothered to install screws in those holes.

[cobra94]

These plates are great for swapping out the 6 saddle version on the 90's MIM's. I did mine a week ago and it's a night/day difference from the original. The outer two screws fit the original holes just don't over torque them or they may strip. Since the inner two holes are new you can torque those ones down. I used the two little front screws (optional in my opinion) but the plate is thick enough to not require them.

As for the finish sticking, has anyone ever tried applying polish or wax (whatever you usually use) to both the underside of the plate and to the mating surface on the body? This may help it come apart easier later on.

Cheers

[amileaway]

I've installed one on my Tele. Very happy with it.

[boris bubbanov]

Pictures, gentlemen. Pictures.

:^)

[Bardenstruck]

Here are some useful notes on the Barden American Standard Tele bridge plate installation (see the bottom of the page):

http://splitrockguitars.com/TelecasterBridge.html

And some pictures with an American Series Telecaster:

http://splitrockguitars.com/TeleBrid...BridgeInst.jpg

To me personally it was surprising how much the Barden bridge actually improved the tone. The guys at JBE are not pushy, they’re pretty careful in their recommendations, so I was told that the bridge itself would not change the sound dramatically without replacing the stock pickup. But I must tell you I found the tone to be significantly better with the Joe Barden bridge. What I can hear now can be described as a wider tonal range, better string balance and more harmonics. The Tele is now even more pleasurable to play :) Very nice bridge indeed!

[DonnyO]

Out of ignorance.....

With saddles mounted by such long screws (or at least how they appear), wouldn't they slide around a bit?

I am seriously giving the bridge some consideration for my Nashville B-bender taking into account the price point alone.

Any thoughts or complaints?

Thanks,
Don

[Bardenstruck]

Originally Posted by DonnyO

With saddles mounted by such long screws (or at least how they appear), wouldn't they slide around a bit?

No, they seem perfectly fine, no sliding, no different from the vintage version.

[Veitchy]

I ordered one and a Gatton set last week. SplitRock are even shiping it with both (long and short) sets of height adjustment screws and a hex wrench which is cool of them. They aparently do it with all the JBE bridges ordered through them so a lot of people must be complaning about those tall screws. Once I drop it in and wire up the pickups I'll post some pics.

[boris bubbanov]

Originally Posted by DonnyO

Out of ignorance.....

With saddles mounted by such long screws (or at least how they appear), wouldn't they slide around a bit?

I am seriously giving the bridge some consideration for my Nashville B-bender taking into account the price point alone.

Any thoughts or complaints?

Thanks,
Don

The string will always move around before the saddles do on a 2 barrel design - so let me rewrite your precise question. When restringing the guitar, you might have to watch these guys a little more carefully. Saddle displacement issues is the province of the 6 saddle bridged guitars.

But as for unwanted movement in general, a bunch of different factors help decide whether the string will slide around, and frankly the length of those long screws isn't one:

1) String guage;

2) The amount of "slant" in each saddle;

3) The amount of "tilt" in each saddle; and

4) The relationship between the hole where the string comes up through the bridge, and the point where the string breaks over the saddle - or, more precisely the angle the string approaches the break point at. Too steep is bad for other reasons, but too shallow is bad; not enough grip area.

I think the Barden saddles are at the limits of how much slant you can use; the Glendale angles are a safer bet, and the Stew Mac #5167 safer still.


The new Barden design aggravates me for a couple of reasons:

1) It looks funny;

2) No one wants to talk which size mounting hardware they are using. Replacing existing #8 hardware with #6 means a loose hold, but all #8 hardware and the screws are silly looking, side by side with real AV style guitars;

3) Developing this elongated design, especially now that you have 2 screws in the far forward corners and it does not need to be elongated anymore, further seals the fate for any development of a truly vintage sized Am Std. compatible plate. Like when your wife "surprises" you with a new vehicle (and car note) which is the wrong size, wrong color, wrong price and marriage being what it is, you can't unring the bell and take the unwanted vehicle back.

[yegbert]

Originally Posted by boris bubbanov

Developing this elongated design, especially now that you have 2 screws in the far forward corners and it does not need to be elongated anymore, further seals the fate for any development of a truly vintage sized Am Std. compatible plate.

Just out of curiousity (I really don't need one) and as a technical challenge, I'd like to see you or someone else make an Am Std compatible bridgeplate that is vintage sized.

I don't think it's practical.

The screws are so far down on the body, they would likely be so close to the edge of the plate that there wouldn't be enough room for the screw heads.

Or they would be so close to the edge of the plate that the heads wouldn't provide the needed downward force to keep the plate held snugly to the body across the whole surface area of the plate; especially if you stuck with vintage type and thickness material.

Folks love the looks of a short bridgeplate, only because that's how Fender happened to make them first and that's how kept them for so many years. If Fender had made them long to start with and had left them that way for the same length of time, and then someone else made a short one, those same folks would say it doesn't look long enough.

I have some short ones and some long ones. I've looked at them all enough that I think I lost my preference for the looks of the vintage ones.

If you want a bridge plate that's really vintage looking and you want to put it on an Am Std, you might as well bite the bullet and fill and drill holes to make a really authentic looking one fit. You'll be doing your part to cut down on the number of pristine, unmodified original Am Std Tele bodies out there, raising the value of them sooner for collectors.