please help-washers stuck in truss rod cavity

[flapjack]

I added 2 washers in front of the truss rod nut so as to increase the amount of action I could assert on the truss rod. The washers appeared to have enough internal diameter to fit over the truss rod, and a small enough diameter to fit in the truss rod cavity in the heel of the neck. However, it is apparent that the washers did not fall down into the truss rod cavity all the way. Now my truss rod nut cannot grip the truss rod. I have already brought the neck to a guitar tech who told me that the only options he know of are to 1) separate fretboard from neck, or 2) drill a hole from the underside of the neck into the truss rod cavity so as to gain access to the area. Either of these are very invasive and will potentially compromise the integrity/sound of the instrument. Are there any other suggestions? Which of these 2 is preferable if not? Thanks for your help!

[pengipete]

Before I went for the major surgery approach I'd try poking and hooking the washers out even it if took a month of effort.

What have you tried so far and are you able to take a good close up photo of the situation for us to see?

Is there any space anywhere in or around the washers that you can fit, say, a crochet hook into?

Are the washers stuck because they're crooked? If so have you tried pushing them further in to make them level?

I'm wondering if, worst case scenario, it's possible to scrape or file the hole a touch to make room for a hook rather than actually drilling a hole or dismantling the neck. Even a small groove may be enough to gain sufficient access.

Ultimately it may even be easier and cheaper to get a new neck that to have your fretboard removed and replaced. It depends on the guitar.

[flapjack]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will try to get a good photo for you, but my poor skills coupled with an obviously difficult spot to photo might render this difficult. So far I have tried digging in a bit around the washer with a sharp, dental-like tool. I think the washers are stuck because the truss rod does not site exactly in the middle of the cavity. This means there is a tiny space at the southern most part(bottom) between the washer and the cavity. The washers appear to be wedged tightly at the northern (top) part of the cavity. I can get a thin guitar string into the gap at the bottom. I can also get my small tools in there, but I have no way of pulling out (towards me) on the washers. I like your idea of scraping or filing the cavity out a bit so as to gain better access to the washers. I might end up getting a new neck, but that would be upsetting since I really like the neck on this guitar (CP 60s Strat). Thanks again for your help.

[Verne Bunsen]

Wow, bummer. While neither of those options sounds particularly appealing, I think about any alternative would be better than removing and reinstalling the fretboard. I've never done it or had it done, but I'm willing to bet it would never be the same. Those dang washers must be stuck like a hair in a biscuit to require that kind of surgery for extraction!! I don't have a real clear picture of how they're situated in the cavity and I'm sure you've tried about everything, but it seems like if they went in they should be able to come out the same way... a dental pick or skinny little needle nose pliers or something. Like I said though, I'm sure you've approached that angle. Good luck man, let us know how it turns out!

[flapjack]

I will post my results, or lack thereof.

[jefrs]

Dremel drill the washers out.

I recently did this to the Baja. Because the barrel nut siezed, I unscrewed it and the entire truss rod came out. Neck off job. I unsiezed the barrel nut and retapped the nut ISO-metric M5 (MIM) also re-died the trussrod. A drop of loctite on the far end and I was able to screw it back in with a lock nut under the barrel nut. With the loctite set I was able to unscrew the barrel nut and retrieve the lock nut.

But when I re-assembled, the two thrust washers jammed, this was the actual cause of the problem, the pressure of the barrel nut caused the washers to spread and the hole was too tight for them, so they scissored and jammed the nut. The barrel nut came out but the washers were not moving and the truss rod was now firmly fixed at the far end. The washers had to come out but they were not moving. Rapping the neck down on the soft bench shifted one washer but it was not coming out even with a dentist's pick.

So last resort - the Dremel !!!!!

A small drill down the side of the truss rod made a number of tiny holes in the washers, effectively cutting them in two, and one came out on the drill, the other dropped out. A few pock marks in the wood. Two under size washers were found and drilled out to 5.5mm clearance. The first went down fine but the second jammed again, fortunately it dropped out after I bashed the butt end of the neck on the bench. The first washer was now firmly embedded in the wood and not going anywhere but the truss rod was free in it. So I re-assembled with only the one washer and wiped the sweat off the bench.

Absolutely smashing! The truss rod now operates smoothly and better than ever before.

[RodeoTex]

I have a handful of dental picks and hooks and other assorted torture implements that my dad gave me. I don't hesitate to bend/file/grind to suit whatever purpose.
Failing having any of those around I'd suggest heating a coat hanger on your stove burner then bend it over and smack it flat with a hammer. Trim the edge to some shape that you best think will grab the washers.

[Lost_N_Austin]

I don't think you said if this was a Telecaster or not and I'm not sure how how much pressure was exerted on the washers to try and get them in the neck but I would try this first. If it is in fact a Tele, I would try to remove the neck if you have not already. Then I would try to Tap, Drop, Pound the butt of the neck into a stable table cushioned by a thick piece of leather. This would have the effect of using inertia to dislodge the washers.

If that did not work, I would try to use a piece of tubing with an inside diameter that would fit over the truss rod but with an outside diameter smaller than the hole. I'd brew some epoxy and dip the end (just the tip) of the tubing in the expoxy first and then insert it into the truss rod hole to attempt to glue the tubimg to the washer. Give it plenty of time to set up and see if you can worry the washer out of the hole.

Looking forward to hearing how this turns out. Good luck.

L_N_A

[jefrs]

Drilling worked, bashing and poking didn't.
Drilling a buggered nut off is normal engineering practice, I just applied it to washers. The Baja's nut is on the heel of the neck. The bench has one of those guitar size rubber bath mats on it. I bashed the butt end, I'm not sure I would have bashed the headstock so hard. I thought about glue but did not want it on the trussrod threads, or down the hole.
I think I used a 1/16-in. drill, it was only just long enough and anything smaller has a habit of snapping in accordance with Murphy's law.

[jwells393]

You haven't said what sort of neck this is but since your guitar tech suggested removing the fretboard, I would assume it has a rosewood fingerboard or at least a separate fingerboard. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think your problem most likely is due to using incorrect sized washers. They're either too big in diameter and are lodged into the wood or the hole in the washer was too small to go over the rod and they are stuck there on the rod's threads.

Before adding washers, you should size them as follows:

1. Make sure the outside diameter is no larger than the diameter of the truss rod nut.

2. Check the hole diameter by sliding it onto a 10-32 screw.

I would probably try some of the above suggestions first. If you're not successful with those approaches, here's a surgical approach that's not too obtrusive. Put the truss rod nut in as far as it will go. Drill a small diameter hole from the end of the neck heel alongside the truss rod nut. You would be using the truss rod nut as a guide so this new hole would be parallel to the truss rod nut hole and right adjacent to it. It only needs to be about an inch deep. This might allow you to get a hooked tool in back of the washers.

Here's an even better approach for a hooked tool. Insert your drill bit into the adjustment hole. Drill into the side of the truss rod hole right where the washers are. That might allow you to get a hooked tool behind them and would never show.

[charlie chitlin]

Bicycle spokes are great grabbers.
If you can get one through the hole in the washer and yank it with vise grips, you can get a good tug on it.
But...I don't totally understand the mechanics of the situation.
I'm not even sure if your adjuster is at the heel or the headstock.
I bet if you posted some pics, somebody could help.

[jwells393]

I'm not even sure if your adjuster is at the heel or the headstock.

Maybe you missed this from the original post.............

The washers appeared to have enough internal diameter to fit over the truss rod, and a small enough diameter to fit in the truss rod cavity in the heel of the neck.

[Alamo]

I think the washers are stuck because the truss rod does not site exactly in the middle of the cavity.

I'd try to bend the truss rod with a nail or a similar pointed tool, into the middle and at the same time fiddle that washer out. some more helping hands may be required for that.
somehow you got it in - now there must be a way out here (....said the chocolate to the bean)

...and +1 what Pengipete said:

Before I went for the major surgery approach I'd try poking and hooking the washers out even it if took a month of effort.

Edit: maybe this kind of tool can do the job. I don't know how you call this in english but a direct translation from "Krallen-greifer" would be "claw-grip"

[charlie chitlin]

Originally Posted by jwells393

Maybe you missed this from the original post.............

D'oh!

[flapjack]

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. Here is where things stand. I have dug around the stuck washers enough so that I can get a little dental tool I have to fit around them. I bent the end of this tool so that I can get behind the washers and pull pretty hard. Still, they are stuck - no movement at all. I am fairly sure that problem is the inside diameter. In other words, I think the washers are squeezing against the threads of the truss rod.

To address at least some of the questions/points that all of you have made... The guitar is a CP 60s Strat (rosewood board). I tried shaking/pounding the neck a bit already. I also tried using a skinny little magnet I have, which fit in the cavity, since the washers are made of steel (I have others I did not use and they are very magnetic).

I think I am going to try the drill method next. That is one method I was already thinking about. If I can just drill through the washers a couple of times, I think my job of extricating them will get easier. Perhaps I can get them to fall apart/fragment. I will report my results. Sorry that I have no pictures, but if I did they would not be terribly exciting. You would just see a now very scarred washer deep in the cavity.

Sorry to be repetitive, but I want to thank everyone again for their help. I really appreciate it.

[charlie chitlin]

If they are cocked on the rod, is there any way to use a hammer and small punch to push one side in a bit further so the washer will be square to the rod and free to drop out without being wedged against the threads?
This would probably cause some gouging of the wood in the cavity.

[pengipete]

Can you use the hook to spin the washer anti-clockwise - unscrew it along the thread?

[charlie chitlin]

Originally Posted by pengipete

Can you use the hook to spin the washer anti-clockwise - unscrew it along the thread?

Drilling a hole in the washer could help you to grab it with an awl or something and unscrew it.
Or 2 holes 180 deg apart and get a pair or snapring pliers in there.

[flapjack]

Early in the process, I tried tapping on one side of the washers to free it up. I have also tried to spin the washer(s) counter clockwise so as to screw them off the truss rod - to no avail. I will try the drill today and will report what happens.

[flapjack]

Problem solved. I used a 1/16" drill to drill a hole in the washers. Then, I put my dental-like tool into the drilled holes and spun the washers counter clockwise. They came right out after a few turns. This took about 4 minutes and cost me nothing. Most important, it saved the neck, and with no damage/alteration to the truss cavity. Thanks for all of your help - a tragedy narrowly averted!!!

[jefrs]

Drills work ?

Well done.

[jwells393]

Good job. Now before you put washers in there again, check the size like I mentioned above.

[charlie chitlin]

Next step...stay away from that dude who wanted to peel your fretboard off.

[jefrs]

One washer, I fancy that two washers will now scissor sideways and bind on the truss rod thread halting the nut from moving freely.
If it is not MIA then prolly M5 metric so run a screw through the nut to clear it before refitting, I've no idea what a MIA screw size is but unlikely to be available in Europe.

[pengipete]

Bet you is happy as this kitten...

[flapjack]

Yes, the drill worked perfectly (1/16th inch bit). The guitar is a CP 60s Strat. I will measure carefully before putting anything down there again. And yes, I am happy, but not sure that I'm quite as elated as that kitten must be.

[pengipete]

I'm really pleased for you - and glad that you didn't have to pay to get it sorted.

[charlie chitlin]

Don't change the subject...let's get back to that kitten...

[flapjack]

I too am glad I did not have to pay to get it sorted out. Even if I did pay to, say, have the fretboard lifted, my understanding is that the neck might never be the same again. Anyway, it is a happy ending. More important, I agree with charlie chitlin - can we get back to that kitten picture? Wow.