Wiring a humbucker w/4-way switch

[eagleeye]

Thank you Deaf Eddie! Obviously you are NOT DEAF and also definitely a GENIUS! OK do you have a preferred way to wire these lil59 pups? Should I not bother with trying to shunt the lil59? I like the single coil in the bridge now so if I leave it and drop the sh59 in the neck is there a preferred way to do this with the four way and push pulls? I really don't want to lose the tele twang! What is your opinion about the lil59 sound? What would Deaf Eddie do if he were me?

[Deaf Eddie]

Hey, what I would do is wire it all up as per the drawing, and LISTEN to it - no one can really describe what something is gonna sound like, some stuff you just have to hear. Then, you can tuck that knowledge away, along with the soldering skills you've exercised, for the NEXT mod. And maybe what I don't like about it you WILL like, and vice-verse. Otherwise, we'd all be playing the SAME axe through the SAME amp...

And, don't get me wrong - that Lil 59er will give you plenty of Tele twang (by my ear) in full humbucker mode. No, it won't sound EXACTLY like a single-coil pup, but it will definitely sound like a Tele bridge pup. They got that part right - and heck, you might really dig it. They DO sell a lot of those pups.

It's my GUESS that where you may find the Lil 59er lacking is if/when you play it in coil-shunt, all by itself. I don't think that you will hear you a solid, single-coil twang that you can use for a solo voice - but it WILL make it a nice mate for other the other pup combos that you will have available. It takes both pups for most of the good stuff in that scheme. And, everything is NOT a solo voice - ya gotta comp behind the singer once in a while!

So, while nothing does EVERYTHING well...

The Lil 59er will probably suit you just fine as an upgraded-from-Squier Tele bridge pickup, and will be a good match in output/volume for the full-sized 59er in the neck (another consideration).

AND, you've got the scheme here to pretty much get the most out of those two pups and the hardware you bought, so, give it a go. Just keep in mind that EVERY tone may not be a slam-dunk-winner - but that's how it is with a lot of axes. I bet there's some killer good stuff in there, too.

Sez I, try it and let us know how you like it. As I said, I may have a few tweaks that can smooth over the deficiencies you find, if the setup comes CLOSE to what you wanted out of that axe.

*****

On the other hand, if you think it just completely sucks, well, that's what we all love about Teles - they're easy to mod, and just as easy to pull the mods back out of. And you never have to throw the parts away - there will be another axe down the road that will just come beggin' for an upgrade or some other crazy scheme...

[eagleeye]

You are THE MAN! I will do exactly as you say and let you know how it comes out. I am glad to hear I picked a great humbucker to compliment the Lil 59er and hope the shunting will be good also? As I know really nothing about wiring pups and switches I am truly grateful for your help! Your diagrams are simple to read and understand. I am also going to get some bumblebee caps in case the orange drops don't cut it. I have heard these are the caps for tone. Expensive but hopefully worth it? Do you have any certain type or brand caps to help my tone? Sorry to have so many questions! I LOVE THE TELE GUITAR and this Squire is a great playing axe for me!

[eagleeye]

I also see three C's in the diagram. Are these three separate caps? If not what are the two small c's on the switch? I know the one C in the brown circle is a tone cap but the two on the four way has me wondering. Does it stand for control switch or capacitor? If neither can you help educate me?

[Deaf Eddie]

The "C"s on the switch are to indicate the Common lugs, at the opposite ends of the switch. On some 3-way and 5-way switches, locating the common lugs has become an issue, so I have just dropped into the practice (lately) of indicating them, to prevent confusion (when I remember to do it!).

I have installed a LOT of S-D 59ers, they're great pups, and do a nice coil-shunt, especially in the neck spot.

I am in the camp that thinks the BRAND of cap makes VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE in the overall tone of the guitar, as opposed to the VALUE you choose - an orange drop will be fine, and in this axe, probably .022uF would be my choice. Opinions are pretty divided on that issue, though, so take everything you hear from players with a grain of salt - me included.

[eagleeye]

Oh I guess I was way off on the the C's. It's great to know IYHO brands of caps make no difference so I will stick to the orange drops and go with .022uf for starters. I will tape a few on a piece of cardboard and clip them in to find the best one before I solder it in. Seems to be a great way to do it. I see Seymour Duncan recommends 250k pots for the Lil 59er but I have the 500k audio taper push pulls. Do you know what the difference will be? Maybe I should have gone with 250k? I'll get them if you think I should? It's great to hear the Lil 59 will coil-shunt nicely so hopefully it will be as good in the bridge. The sh1 59 four conductor hopefully will match up with the Lil 59er's sound both single and humbucker positions? Honestly I am guessing they will and used the tone chart on SD to decide. I also have a Phat cat which I was going to use first for the neck before getting the s1 59 four conductor so if I don't like the S1 59 I will switch to the Phat cat. Would you know if it will be an easy swap between the two or will I have to go back to college? Does the phat cat coil-shunt? It is I believe a single coil in a humbucker casing so I did not think it could be? Any idea what I could do with the Phat cat in the neck position with the four way and push pull's along with the Lil 59er in the bridge?

[Deaf Eddie]

I see Seymour Duncan recommends 250k pots for the Lil 59er but I have the 500k audio taper push pulls. Do you know what the difference will be?

The rule of thumb is, 250K will mellow the tone, 500K will brighten the tone. I didn't know they recommended 250K for the Lil' 59er - that may be why I think they have so much bite, as I'm pretty sure I used 500K when I was fooling around with one.

It's great to hear the Lil 59 will coil-shunt nicely so hopefully it will be as good in the bridge.

Read it again - I meant the full-sized 59er will coil-shunt nicely; the Lil' 59er, not so much. The full-humbucker tones will match up pretty good, but the coil-shunts may not. That's a set of pups that I haven't ever paired up myself, so I'm just guessing, based on my experience with the pups in separate axes.

I also have a Phat cat which I was going to use first for the neck before getting the s1 59 four conductor so if I don't like the S1 59 I will switch to the Phat cat.

IF you had a 3-way pup selector in there, that would be an easy swap, but I think that the Phat Cat has the dreaded vintage-style braided lead. if that's the case, it will NOT be an easy swap in this scheme - in fact, you may not be able to use the 4-way with that pickup without a BUNCH of rewiring. And, it definitely won't do coil-shunts! Save it for another axe, unless you just hate this scheme and decide to blow it all out.

[eagleeye]

I will keep the Phat cat for my Epiphone Les Paul or one of my DOTS? I like your schematic and think I should leave well enough alone for now. It's all good now! THANK YOU DEAF EDDIE. Without your knowledge my tele and bag of parts would be sitting collecting dust. I will let you know how it all sounds once I get it all in.

[Deaf Eddie]

Don't forget, the bare wires in the lead bundles for each pickup go to ground - I don't show that in the drawing.

For the bridge pup, it goes with its green lead to the back of the the tone pot; for the neck pup, it goes straight to ground on the back of the volume pot (the neck pup green lead does NOT go to ground).

[eagleeye]

I am glad you mentioned that as I would have been wondering. Does the neck green go to common and black from the tone pot to common also? And does the violet go through the back lugs connecting both on the tone pot? Also does the red and white wire of the neck pup go on the same middle lug together on the volume pot? It looks like it does from what I see. This AXE is GONNA SCREAM!!!

[eagleeye]

And can I use insulated phone wire to make my jumpers?

[Deaf Eddie]

Does the neck green go to common and black from the tone pot to common also?

Yes, the neck's green lead goes to one common lug on the 4-way, and the black lead from the bridge pup (after a detour through one lug of the p/p on the tone pot) goes to the other common.

And does the violet go through the back lugs connecting both on the tone pot?

Yes. I'd call those the "top" lugs of the p/p, if that helps - the middle pair are the commons, and the pair closest to the pot would be the "bottom" lugs.

Also does the red and white wire of the neck pup go on the same middle lug together on the volume pot?

Yes. With Seymour Duncan pickups, the red and white leads are the "series pair". To do a coil shunt, you just have to give their "joint" a connection to ground (or hot), and it bypasses one of the coils. BTW, you may notice that I have shunted the bridge pup to ground and the neck pup to hot - and that will leave you a noise-canceling pair when you play both pups together in coil-shunt mode.

And can I use insulated phone wire to make my jumpers?

Any kind of insulated wire that you find easy to work with will do just fine. There's hardly any real voltage here, so there's no need to use anything other than a very light gauge wire - 22 GA is fine, and what I use most of the time. You can use solid or stranded INSIDE your control cavity, where the wires won't be moved around or flexed.

[eagleeye]

WOW Where did you learn all of this? I am AMAZED at your knowledge! I did notice the bridge pup to ground and the neck to hot but now I know why. THANK YOU again VERY MUCH! If you ever come to Redding, CA maybe we can JAM or FISH on the Sacramento in a drift boat? I owe you at least that! All you need is a license. I will take care of the rest!

[eagleeye]

My tele control plate's pot holes are smaller than the push pull alpha type. Is there a special type pot to use or must I drill out the control plate holes to get them in? Also I think I will just use one push pull pot rather than two. Or I will have to route out the cavity to do it and I don't want to do that. So I will leave the bridge full and shunt the humbucker. Can you draw that one up for me? One push pull 500k and one 250k or 500k regular pot whatever you think? I know SD says 250k for the lil59 so I was going to leave the stock one alone. HELP!

[Deaf Eddie]

... must I drill out the control plate holes to get them in?

Yup, that's a common issue when upgrading an import to USA parts. Drill, ream, or file... or get a new control plate.

I will leave the bridge full and shunt the humbucker.

OK, here ya go:



Use your stock 250K volume for now, the 500K p/p is a good choice for the tone pot. Since you are leaving the bridge pup as a humbucker full time, solder its red and white lead together and tape them off so that they don't short out on anything in the control cavity.

[eagleeye]

I have a little problem. My tone pot is in the spot I would have to route to get the push pull to fit down in the cavity. Or I have to switch places of them on the control plate. My volume would be in the rear and the tone in front. OR can I use the 500k as volume and push pull for the humbucker and use the 250k stock pot for tone? I have a standard 500k pot I can use for the tone if that is what you recommend.

[eagleeye]

Deaf Eddie; I drilled the control plate and now can install the new 500k pots. I will install one push pull volume pot and one tone pot. Both will be 500k now. How should I wire the setup with the 4 way switch and use the 500k push pull as volume and 500k as tone? SORRY TO BE SUCH A PAIN IN THE TELE! I just want to make sure it is done correctly and of course will have the BEST sounds! I just can't talk myself into routing for the other push pull as the cavity is too shallow in the place it is mounted! Any advice will be greatly appreciated form anyone whom has knowledge! Can you draw up one last diagram for this idot?

[Deaf Eddie]

You just move the switch part of the drawing over to the volume pot - the switches on p/p pots are completely independent from the pot part.



You can use either the 250K or the 500K for the tone pot, I doubt that there will be a great deal of difference in the tone between the two at the tone pot spot - that usually makes a bigger difference with the volume pot.

[eagleeye]

I am getting ground noise with my setup. It gets louder when I touch any metal on the guitar. I checked my wiring and it is all correct. Can you check the schematic or do you have an idea as to what is causing the problem? My tele is BUZZING. I will try and isolate now. Other than that it seems to have good sound. The push pull pot works for the neck humbucker and tone works also. I am pretty sure it is a minor issue but have no clue where to start? I had the wire grounding the bridge plate and it is grounded to the bottom of the plate when screwed down. I am LOST now! HELP! Deaf Eddie, Can you hear the BUZZ? SOunds like a bumble bee and gets louder when I touch metal on my axe! Any clue?

[Deaf Eddie]

Try reversing the leads at the output jack - that's the most common error for the all-metal-parts-buzz issue...

[cc9cii]

Deaf Eddie you are a patient man.... There are 3 separate posters with questions on this thread...

[eagleeye]

I will give it a try. I took everything apart and will resolder it all back up. This time I can do a better job with wires and I have a better soldering iron which gets hotter faster! I think the output jack is probably the culprit as I changed it to a switchcraft and probably wired it wrong. I have it all apart now so I will try again. Thanx Deaf Eddie once again! You are the MAN! Can I ask what I get with wiring it this way? I mean the switch wiring to pup action! And do I still wire the green and bare for the bridge to the back of the tone pot and the neck pup bare only to the back of the volume pot with the green to the common on the switch?

[Deaf Eddie]

You mean, you're wiring this scheme up and you don't know what it will give you?
Yikes! How will you know if it works???

Basically, it's just the Fender 4-way scheme: bridge/both parallel/neck/both series.
The p/p will coil-shunt the neck pup, which you will hear in throws 2-4, when the neck pup is playing.

The drawing is the drawing is the drawing - just follow it. The bare leads from the pickup bundles go to ground at the most convenient place, usually the back of the pots.

[eagleeye]

I know what you mean! Yes I am BLIND when it comes to this stuff. I really meant for the switch how does it work? I see that I need to bridge two places but don't know what it does or what each of the posts go for? All I know is it works except for the ground noise and probably it is what you said? Hey I am getting faster and better at soldering and when I understand the switch I will feel a lot more comfortable. And yes you are right about the drawing I am doing as you say and following it. Honestly I wish I understood more but the switch has me baffled. THANK YOU so much for everything! My TELE of the world thanks you also! I'll hook the output switch up now and I am finished. Will let you know the results!

[eagleeye]

OK I did the mods and all is well with the buzzing. You were right about the output wires being mixed up. I put the .033 cap in and it sounds dark with little treble response. I have the 500k pots in for tone and volume. Would I want to increase or decrease the cap to get more treble. Also I believe switch one? is kind of whimpy in sound. It is the selector towards the neck of the guitar. Any idea what I can do to boost the output for this selector or is it suppose to be that way? Other than those two issues the pups sound like they are winners! THANKS EDDIE! You are the guru of guitar electronics!!!

[Deaf Eddie]

If you decrease the value of the tone cap - that's the cap that has one leg on the tone pot's middle lug and one leg on ground - it should brighten the guitar up a bit. Try a .020uF, that's the standard tone cap value for humbuckers. Make sure that the legs of the cap don't touch anything they are not supposed to touch.

Did you remember to solder the red and white leads from the bridge pickup together, and tape them up?

The throw with the lever pointed at the neck (let's call that #4, because this is a Tele) should be the series throw, the loudest, fattest tone the guitar makes.

Tell me - is the parallel throw (#2, at the bridge end) also thin and twangy?
If so, then the pickups are wired out of phase.

It would be VERY uncommon for two pickups from the same brand to be out of phase, but it happens (it happened to me with a pair of Seymour Duncan Antiquity P90s). So...

If that's a YES, then swap the black and green leads from the bridge pickup - put the bridge pup's green on the 4-way, and its black on ground. The bare lead does NOT get moved.

If that's a NO, then we have a puzzle...

Try the tap test: with the guitar plugged in and the amp's volume set low, turn the guitar's volume and tone all the way up.

Now, run the pickup selector through all its throws, and tap on a pickups' polepiece at each throw to confirm they are working when they should, and don't sound when they are not supposed to.

If you tap and get a solid "THUNK", the pickup is working. if you get a faint "tick", then the pickup is in the circuit, but shunted (shorted). If you get nothing, the pickup is out of the circuit.

You can test your coil-shunt p/p this way as well - with it IN, both coils of the neck pup should THUNK; with it OUT, one coil will THUNK and the other should just "tick"...

[eagleeye]

Yes I soldered the red and white before taping the bridge pups together. And no the #2 at the bridge end does not sound whimpy. In fact #2 and #3 sound almost the same and are the loudest. The push pull also does very little for sound change. #1 #2 #3 all sound similar in output from the back side switch. But #1 in the neck side is WEAK and WHIMPY! I am stumped also. I will do the tap test now.

[eagleeye]

#4 is the weakest

[eagleeye]

the screw neck is weak on #4 but the other is sounding and the bridge both sides are strong in #4 position. When the Push pull is pulled #4 the neck is dead but the bridge is active. #3 they all are strong. doesn't make much difference if the push pull is in either position. #2 the neck is strong on both but weak when pulled. #1 they are all strong both neck and bridge but the neck is the strongest. When pulled the screw in the neck is louder than the other in #1 position. When pushed down they all are strong both bridge and neck in #1 position.

[eagleeye]

I notice it is louder when not touching any metal but is less loud and noisy once I touch metal or screw down the control plate.

[Deaf Eddie]

Can you post a picture of your wiring job? You missed something in there, especially if you are saying that the neck pup plays in all the throws...

I'm having a hard time reading your post. Can you format your text like this (this is what you SHOULD be getting, if you have followed the drawing):

1 - bridge solo - tap test: bridge coils THUNK, neck coils do not sound
1 - bridge solo - P/P OUT: no change

2 - neck and bridge parallel - all poles/both pups THUNK
2 - neck and bridge parallel - P/P OUT: all poles THUNK except neck slug-coil ticks

3 - neck solo - both neck coils THUNK, bridge coils do not sound
3 - neck solo - P/P OUT: neck screw coil THUNKS, neck slug coil ticks

4 - neck and bridge series - tap test: all poles/both pups THUNK
4 - neck and bridge series - P/P OUT: all poles THUNK except neck slug-coil

[eagleeye]

YEP you are right again! I had my switch wired wrong. It is better but even with a .022 cap is very bright. It doesn't have the output like before at all especially when playing clean. In between #3 and #4 switch I get a great output sound but only when switching between the two channels. Any idea because that is when I have the best output out of all the settings but only between 3 and 4. I have no idea how to get a picture to you as I have no URL? If you can give some idea how I can let you view it?

[eagleeye]

It seems my bridge is not working unless I put the switch between 3 and 4 if those #s are the furthest towards the neck? Iy only works between 3 and 4 but that is all!

[eagleeye]

Can you tell me how to tell which post is common on each side? I try and match the picture to the schematic but the posts don't match up unless I flip the switch which I did. My neck pup is active in every throw. I have pics but don't know how to post on here for you to view. I know it is my switch as everything else is right as to the drawing.

[eagleeye]

OK I think you have the commons wrong on your drawings. It looks as though the outer posts are the commons on each side and you have the inners as common. Am I correct here?

[Deaf Eddie]

The commons in my drawing are indicated by the "C" next to the lugs, top left and bottom right. That IS CORRECT. We already went though that, about a dozen posts up...

I checked my drawing against the original Fender drawing for the 4-way, and, my bad, I actually have the top row of lugs shifted right instead of left in the drawing - so VERTICALLY, in the drawing, the poles don't match the real deal - BUT, left through right, all the jumpers and connections are indicated correctly.

I have edited and corrected this, if you refresh the webpage you will see the corrected drawings.

BTW, you cant't flip a switch like this before you wire it up and gain anything - the layout is STILL the same, when rotated 180 degrees: commons at top left and bottom right. And the vertical alignment doesn't change, either.

In spite of all that, if you had followed the old drawing, which indicated CORRECTLY the commons at top right and bottom left, and the order of all the jumpers and connections - you would get the correct combos.

If you don't get the bridge-only in throw #1, selector lever pointing bridge-ward, you have the switch wired incorrectly.

[eagleeye]

I still have problems! Everything is hooked up as your diagram is and in #1 I have the bridge and neck when push pull is down and neck screw side active when pulled along with bridge in #1 position. In #2 I get bridge and neck with smooth active when in down position and screw side of neck active when pulled. In #3 I get neck only and smooth side of it active when down and screw side of neck active when pulled. In #4 I get smooth side of neck in down position and screw side in pulled position. How do I get a picture on here for you to check out?

[eagleeye]

Can you draw me a correct switch diagram as I know this is all in the switch? I did as you said and it is not right. I followed your updated diagram and have what I stated above. I am totally confused now. Don't know what is what. Something is not right! Probably me!

[cc9cii]

Borrow a camera and post some closeup pics at several angles.

Too hard with just words.

[Deaf Eddie]

It sounds as though your neck pickup has an alternate path to ground. If that's the case, then you have something going on with the neck pup's green lead.

#1. The green lead should be connected SEPARATE from the bare lead. The bare lead ONLY (not the green) should be soldered to ground.

#2. The green lead from the neck pup should ONLY be attached to the common lug on the 4-way, top left, and NOT have any path to ground that does not go through the 4-way.

Check it for me with a meter, like this: unsolder the neck pup's green lead from the 4-way, and test it against the guitar's ground. It should read "open" - no continuity. If you have continuity, that's the problem.