RS Guitarworks Pots - Jim Weider

[Brian.Tele]

Hey guys, I read Jim Weider put a set of RS Guitarworks pots in his 52 tele.....I'm building a partscaster and wondering if anyone has tried out their Vintage Tele upgrade kits....?

Also what would you guys recommend......using the Jensen paper in oil cap or going with Luxe Caps which they also sell.....?

Thanks.

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore...roducts_id=410

http://www.rsguitarworks.net/rsstore...roducts_id=396

[tdowns]

I would never buy anything like that. Read their comments.

All of the above components combine to create unprecedented clarity in your overall tone. This increase in clarity will also equate to an increase in note bloom, harmonic complexity, and, in some cases, sustain. Because this kit increases the usability and intuitiveness of the controls onboard your guitar, you will achieve tones that you didn’t think were possible. The Vintage Upgrade Kits offer a warmer, woody tone.

That is hogwash. Go buy some decent CTS pots and Radio Shack capacitors and don't get taken by this hype.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by tdowns

I would never buy anything like that. Read their comments.



That is hogwash. Go buy some decent CTS pots and Radio Shack capacitors and don't get taken by this hype.

I'll agree with the hogwash on that quote, but that's not all they wrote.....it's all in the comments you choose to read.

This is the one that got my attention:

"These pots are manufactured by CTS specifically for RS Guitarworks. We designedthe potentiometers to our specs, which exceed those of the CTS pots that are and have been the industry standard for over 40 years with Gibson®, Fender® etc. The RS Guitarworks "Super-Pot" is made with tolerances that are twice as tight as the normal CTS pots used in even the most expensive Les Pauls® etc. We also had the cheap aluminum shaft replaced with brass for more durability. We chose CTS’s old-school heavy carbon resistance path instead of the inferior silk-screening currently used by many other makers".

It got my attention mainly because today's CTS pots are not the same as the old ones. I'm consistly amazed at the longevity of my vintage guitar CTS pots that still work great after 50 years, but I've been disappointed with recent ones that get scratchy after a year. They have changed the formula.

So I tried the RS super pots. They look, feel, and sound very solid and quiet with a great taper. I suspect they are going to be much closer in longevity to the originals. If so, they are worth it. I'll let you know in 40 years.

[nasonm]

This is a subject I have been looking into for a few weeks now. I want to rewire my tele and like anything else in my life, I like to research before buying anything.

What I've seen and read so far is that caps are caps but pots are not always pots. A RS superpot is $8, a CTS pot is $4 and a Alpha pot is $3. That's not a huge difference to me.

But when it comes to caps, A Luxe cap for $30 is insane when you can get an orange drop for $1. You can go even cheaper with the Radio Shack green weenies.

It it funny though that I read a lot of threads about caps and pots and RS Guitarworks here at the TDPRI and found that the consensus is it's not worth the extra money, whereas on thegearpage.net, they swear that a Paper-In-Oil cap is night and day better than a "cheap" cap.

It's an interesting debate for sure, but the placebo effect does enter the equasion after a certain price point (the buyer convinces themselves that it IS better based on the face that it cost more).

[jrfrond]

The RS pots are mainly about the taper, which is very smooth. Is it worth $30? That depends. My take on it is that we've had regular ol' pots in electric guitars for 50+ years, and they've worked fined. In addition, all of the caps used were used because that was what was available, not because they were anything special.

I agree with TDowns: get regular pots and caps, wire 'em up and just play.

[stephent2]

"These pots are manufactured by CTS specifically for RS Guitarworks. We designedthe potentiometers to our specs, which exceed those of the CTS pots that are and have been the industry standard for over 40 years with Gibson®, Fender® etc. The RS Guitarworks "Super-Pot" is made with tolerances that are twice as tight as the normal CTS pots used in even the most expensive Les Pauls® etc. We also had the cheap aluminum shaft replaced with brass for more durability. We chose CTS’s old-school heavy carbon resistance path instead of the inferior silk-screening currently used by many other makers".

That's why I use the "superpots" for volume controls, I'm just looking for a better product and the rest of it is puffing.

Puffing: An opinion or judgment that is not made as a representation of fact.

Puffing is generally an expression or exaggeration made by a salesperson or found in an advertisement that concerns the quality of goods offered for sale. It presents opinions rather than facts and is usually not considered a legally binding promise. Such statements as "this car is in good shape" and "your wife will love this watch" constitute puffing.

[mrmorrison]

I'm so glad I found this thread. This is what I'll be using for my build!

[jkingma]

If you are going to build yourself 1 or 2 guitars and want the best of everything then it might be worth spending the extra bucks for top of the line pots and caps. You might hear a difference but I doubt it. They will probably last longer. But if you are building guitars for the average Joe out there, it's not worth the extra expense, IMO, unless the average Joe wants to pay the extra bucks so that he can brag about how much better his guitars is over someone else's because he spec'd the best pots and caps to get that vintage sound.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by jrfrond

The RS pots are mainly about the taper, which is very smooth. Is it worth $30? That depends. My take on it is that we've had regular ol' pots in electric guitars for 50+ years, and they've worked fined. In addition, all of the caps used were used because that was what was available, not because they were anything special.

I agree with TDowns: get regular pots and caps, wire 'em up and just play.

Point is that the "regular old pots" are not the same anymore.

If you use the volume pot as a very integral part of your playing, like many tele players do, then taper, noise-free, smoothness, and longevity are pretty important IMHO. Certainly worth the cost of a couple of sets of strings in the long run. OTOH, if you just max out your vol control and use pedals for altering gain and boost, then you may not see the same value.

All I can say is that mine seem like really good pots so far, and that they are noticeably different than the best CTS pots I've been able to find. The CTS have gotten noisy in less than a year in two guitars and are definately down in quality from my vintage pots. Take those observations for what they may be worth to you......

[nasonm]

I guess I have to correct myself.

I think RS raised their prices over the last week. Superpots are $15 each. The kit I had originally looked at is now over $40! (3 pots, 1 cap, 1 jack and wire)

[jwsamuel]

The description talks about tolerances. I don't see an electric guitar as being something that requires extremely tight tolerances. Can someone tell me why "tolerances that are twice as tight as the normal CTS pots" are needed in a Telecaster or other guitar?

Jim

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by jwsamuel

The description talks about tolerances. I don't see an electric guitar as being something that requires extremely tight tolerances. Can someone tell me why "tolerances that are twice as tight as the normal CTS pots" are needed in a Telecaster or other guitar?

Jim

Resistive element tolerance and mechanical tolerance can be significant. A 20% tolerance on the value of the pot gives a range of 200K to 300K. I can most certainly hear the difference in that range. Is better tolerance needed? Well, my world certainly won't end but given the choice, I'd rather have a consistent product than have to sort through a bunch to get the value I like.

Mechanical tolerance? I'd rather have a pot that did not have a bunch of play in the shaft than one that did. It just feels better made, probably because it is.

Is it needed? Of course not. But then we really all could be playing Squires too, if you get right down to it......

[Old Cane]

I won't use them. From the sound of the description it would make me sound better. I won't stand for that.

[red57strat]

I have RS Superpots in all my guitars because I like the taper.

They're especially nice on a guitar with dual volume controls like a Les Paul. They make it easier to balance the two pickups.

The taper is also nice for volume swells.

They have a tight feel that can be loosened with a shot of cleaner/lube.

[Guitar_Ninja]

Aren't CTS pots already made to 5% tolerances? So these are at 2.5% tolerances?

Regardless (or is that irregardless? ), all of the half a dozen 250K CTS pots I've bought in the last year have been within 5K of that number, so I don't know that that's anything to worry about for me. YMMV.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by Guitar_Ninja

Aren't CTS pots already made to 5% tolerances? So these are at 2.5% tolerances?.

Per the CTS spec sheet:

Electrical and Mechanical Specifications
Resistance Range
500 ohms through 1 Megohm
Resistance Tolerance
Standard ±20%

But even more important (for me anyway) is the construction. They are definitely not the same pots as the old ones...they get noisy real fast. So an extra $5 or $10 for a long lasting quiet pot with a great taper is a bargain in my book. But as you say, YMMV....

[KevinB]

I used one of their superpots as the volume control for my last (Esquire) assembly and it works very well indeed. The taper seems to be very usable and the shaft has just the right resistance to turning.

To spend an extra $10 or so on a guitar that has cost me almost a grand to build, and to get the best possible pot I can, is just a no brainer.

Now maybe I wouldn't use them on a Saga build, but hey

[Rob DiStefano]

What tdowns said: just go with quality full sized pots like CTS or Alpha, and any simple mylar or polyester caps like the 75 cent green weenies from Radio Shack - anything else for a passive guitar circuit is really a total waste of good money. I prefer CTS pots - well built, easy to take apart, and a snap to convert to a no-load. Radio Shack caps are metal film, 5% tolerance and built for a lifetime of use. The RS Guitarworks caps are good quality but absolutely not required for passive guitar circuits, and all their stuff can be bought cheaper elsewhere.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by fullerplast

Per the CTS spec sheet:



But even more important (for me anyway) is the construction. They are definitely not the same pots as the old ones...they get noisy real fast. So an extra $5 or $10 for a long lasting quiet pot with a great taper is a bargain in my book. But as you say, YMMV....

I install CTS 250k and 500k on a daily basis, for many years. I get the pots in bulk supply and meter every one. The 250k's run a rough approximate average of 245k, with some down to 240k and some up to 260k. CTS pots easily come apart and you can increase the resistance by using a single edge razor blade to scrape off some of the carbon strip EDGE. It's easy to get a 240k pot to 250k or more.

[Rob DiStefano]

I took a look at the RSG site pic of their "Superpot" - they sure do like standard open case CTS pots. It'd be real interesting to see if CTS makes RSG branded pots.

Bottom line is, you wanna spend $10-$15 for the same pot you could get for $5 (or less)???

Any open case pot is susceptible to getting dirt on the wiper or carbon strip, including CTS pots and RS "Superpots".

[fabiomayo]

All I know is that I got a couple of RS Superpots and they were scratchy
right out of the box . It was very hard to clean and every now and then,
especially with little use they come right back at scratchy.

I e-mailed then and never got a reply. RS Superpots no more!

I had very few problems with regular CTS and none with regular Alphas.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by fabiomayo

All I know is that I got a couple of RS Superpots and they were scratchy
right out of the box . It was very hard to clean and every now and then,
especially with little use they come right back at scratchy.

I e-mailed then and never got a reply. RS Superpots no more!

I had very few problems with regular CTS and none with regular Alphas.

As with any open case pot, squirt in some electrical contact cleaner and rotate the wiper. If that doesn't work, pry up the each of the 4 case tabs with a thin knife or Xacto blade, pull open with a pair of long nose pliers, lift off the case top, lift out the carbon strip and contact wafer. Inspect and clean the carbon strip and wiper. Reassemble.

[fabiomayo]

Thanks, Rob. The problem is that the pots are on a 335 style guitar. Hard to clean.
It's an involved matter taking them out :)

I'm gonna have to do it soon (switch problems) and I thought about replacing them.
I'm gonna try your suggestions. Just imagine damaging a U$20 pot... the horror...

[red57strat]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

I took a look at the RSG site pic of their "Superpot" - they sure do like standard open case CTS pots. It'd be real interesting to see if CTS makes RSG branded pots.

RS Superpots are CTS pots with a non-standard taper.

I've measured and graphed them. They're sort of between an audio taper and a linear taper pot.

[red57strat]

Originally Posted by fabiomayo

Thanks, Rob. The problem is that the pots are on a 335 style guitar. Hard to clean.
It's an involved matter taking them out :)

On an ES I can sometimes just get the straw on the cleaner to reach the opening in the pot to clean them.

If the opening's on the other side, away from the F hole, they can often be loosened just enough to rotate them to the point where the opening can be reached without complete disassembly.

[fullerplast]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

I took a look at the RSG site pic of their "Superpot" - they sure do like standard open case CTS pots. It'd be real interesting to see if CTS makes RSG branded pots.

Bottom line is, you wanna spend $10-$15 for the same pot you could get for $5 (or less)???

It's not the same pot. It is built by CTS. Just like strings are manufactured to different specs for various vendors. Is anybody reading the posts in this thread? Again:

"These pots are manufactured by CTS specifically for RS Guitarworks. We designedthe potentiometers to our specs, which exceed those of the CTS pots that are and have been the industry standard for over 40 years with Gibson®, Fender® etc. The RS Guitarworks "Super-Pot" is made with tolerances that are twice as tight as the normal CTS pots used in even the most expensive Les Pauls® etc. We also had the cheap aluminum shaft replaced with brass for more durability. We chose CTS’s old-school heavy carbon resistance path instead of the inferior silk-screening currently used by many other makers".

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by fullerplast

It's not the same pot. It is built by CTS. Just like strings are manufactured to different specs for various vendors. Is anybody reading the posts in this thread? Again:

Obviously not filtering through all the posts. At least I guessed right about the manufacturer. That said, I still can't see spending 1 or 2 times more dollars for a slightly different taper. Maybe I'm old school, or just plain old and stupid, but I have no issues or problems using standard audio taper pots for passive guitar circuits.

[stephent2]

These threads tickle me. Funny (to me) that a strong opinion would preclude a full reading of the thread or any wiggle room in that stone tablet of our minds. But that's the nature of the internet forum, I guess we're all busy folks.

The rest of us are not idiots, we can spend our lives doing the same things and come to different conclusions. Happens all the time. I write this with happiness in my heart and a smile on my face.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by stephent2

These threads tickle me. Funny (to me) that a strong opinion would preclude a full reading of the thread or any wiggle room in that stone tablet of our minds. But that's the nature of the internet forum, I guess we're all busy folks.

The rest of us are not idiots, we can spend our lives doing the same things and come to different conclusions. Happens all the time. I write this with happiness in my heart and a smile on my face.

Strong opinions are built upon many things: some true and some false, and YMMV.

I've found that as I've aged my filtering processes and attention focus have both become less sharp ... that and a very busy lifestyle. So, yeah - guilty as charged.

Indeed, in the end all that matters is the happiness in yer heart and the smile on yer face.

PS - I still wouldn't buy RSG pots.

[stephent2]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

I've found that as I've aged my filtering processes and attention focus have both become less sharp ... that and a very busy lifestyle.

Ditto. I wanted to use/learn a new application for some web sites i do, thought I'd be better off with a new application that professed to write better code. Give me some new tricks,...

Bought the app, printed the 500 page PDF manual,... spent a week and ended up right back where I started, using the old app.

It's true on many levels, old dogs and new tricks, some stuff is a breeze, some stuff is just too much work to pull together and I blame age.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by stephent2

Ditto. I wanted to use/learn a new application for some web sites i do, thought I'd be better off with a new application that professed to write better code. Give me some new tricks,...

Bought the app, printed the 500 page PDF manual,... spent a week and ended up right back where I started, using the old app. ...

Man, can I relate to that on so many coding levels!

[Noname]

I bought the RS Superpots for a les paul style guitar, they were VERY nice, I ended up experimenting with other wiring configurations and ended up shorting out one of those pots, melted solder went inside the thing, I thought best to just replace the thing, I went to buy just 1 RS superpot, back when I was considering buying ONE superpot I put in the order, it was $9.95 for the pot, $10.88 for shipping, are you SERIOUS!!!!! I said no thank you. I would be perfectly willing to spend $10 on the pot, honestly but to gouge on shipping is just wrong so I cant buy them on principal.

[nasonm]

I felt the same way. I went online the other day to buy a jazz bass kit from them. The kit was $42 (3 pots, wire, one cap, one jack). This package weighs less than 1 pound for sure.

Shipping was $11! No thanks.

[uberaxe]

Originally Posted by fullerplast

I'll agree with the hogwash on that quote, but that's not all they wrote.....it's all in the comments you choose to read.

This is the one that got my attention:



It got my attention mainly because today's CTS pots are not the same as the old ones. I'm consistently amazed at the longevity of my vintage guitar CTS pots that still work great after 50 years, but I've been disappointed with recent ones that get scratchy after a year. They have changed the formula.

So I tried the RS super pots. They look, feel, and sound very solid and quiet with a great taper. I suspect they are going to be much closer in longevity to the originals. If so, they are worth it. I'll let you know in 40 years.

Guys, in the event none of you knew this, you can simply go to the CTS website http://www.ctscorp.com/components/potentiometers.htm and scroll down to the second 450 series pot and click on the pdf link. It will tell you how to put together pots to your own specifications just like RS. You can choose shaft material and style, tolerance, taper, resistance, value all that stuff. Remember you want the 450 series stock pot. Matter of fact, you can take the RS "Superpot" specs and just duplicate them at CTS and make them yourself.

When you're done with that, go to http://www.futurlec.com/Capacitors.shtml where you can get reall good capacitors for .05 cents each. That's the site of Futurlec of Japan. I use their stuff in board components and its good, cheap as hell and they have thousands of caps, resistors, and all manner of electronics.

Hope that helps some of you. Incidentally the Tele comes stock with a 1meg pot if I'm not mistake which is a part of what makes the guitar so bright

[Brock Lee]

Measure the old ones. The tolerances were terrible on the originals. Usually they swing to the extremes of the tolerance, but do occasionally fall in the middle. It was rare to get a real 250K pot though. You were most likely to get a 210K or a 290K. So at the end of the day, why try to tighten a tolerance the factory didn't even adhere to?

[santellan]

Tighter tolerances produces a more consistance reproducible sound which is great if you build many units.
-20% could be 200-250K, +20% would be 250-300K and a full range +/-20% would be 200-300K. All of these cases would meet the spec tolerance of +/-20%.

Now if the tolerances were +/-10% then -10% would be 225-250K , +10% 250-275K and full range 225-275K.

The spread is 25K from nominal which means pickups will sound more consistent between guitar units.

[santellan]

If you are looking for longer lasting pots I would try out the Bourns pot made with Conductive polymer element. These pots spec to last 100,000 cycles minimum rather than standard pots 15,000 cycles minimum.

You can do a search for "Model 95 Premium Guitar Potentiometer"

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by santellan

Tighter tolerances produces a more consistance reproducible sound which is great if you build many units.
-20% could be 200-250K, +20% would be 250-300K and a full range +/-20% would be 200-300K. All of these cases would meet the spec tolerance of +/-20%.

Now if the tolerances were +/-10% then -10% would be 225-250K , +10% 250-275K and full range 225-275K.

The spread is 25K from nominal which means pickups will sound more consistent between guitar units.

Respectfully, it is not very useful to worry about volume pot precision when the impedance of the amplifier/effect you may plug into is all over the map. Many Peavey amps have an input impedance of 220K, while the Fender Twin has an input impedance of 1meg. Those impedances are in parallel with your pickup/volume/tone pots. At frequencies higher than ~100Hz, the tone pot is basically a capacitively coupled load resistor. So inside the guitar you have slightly greater than 250k for the tone pot, and 250k for the volume pot. Let's say that is a parallel effective 130k load to the pickup. Now plug it into a Peavey with 220k input impedance and you have 82k as seen by the pickup. Plug into a Fender Twin and the impedance seen by the pickup is 129k. 129k is 57% greater than 82k.

The resistive load impedance on the resonant circuit of a pickup with much inductance and the capacitance of the amp/cable changes the sound because the resistance damps (lowers the Q) that resonance. There is no doubt it changes the sound. But there is no need to worry about the precision of the pot value when the "amp of the day" will have a much more varied effect on the damping of that resonance.

[59TweedVibrolux]

Ah... the wonderful world of marketing. Wonder if Jimi cared about
tolerances ? or SRV / Beck / Clapton / Keef / Gallagher / Muddy / 3 x Kings /
John Lee to name but a few..........

[santellan]

Terry, you are correct about the larger impact different amps have with the guitar signal and sound. The same can be said for pedals and how they affect the quality of the signal when it reaches the amp.

My reference to tolerances had to do with the same product having reproducible characteristics if you built say 100 units.

In the reversed manner if you are using the same guitar and plugged into 100 of the “same model” amplifiers, you would have tonal variations using the exact same settings between the amps if the manufacturer used large tolerances of say +/- 30% for their component specs rather than +/-5%. The tighter the tolerances the more predictable results will be.

Thanks for you feedback.