Body wood for a first time laquer attempt

TeleGeir · January 5th, 2004, 09:24 AM

While I am sure Kevin is just trying to manage our expectations in his post about the Cashcaster on the main page: http://www.tdpri.com/viewtopic.php?t=12719, I guess we can thank him for the undoubtedly excellent result.

Now the body that caused him so much trouble is one of two identical ones I had:

I meant to finish the other one myself, in solid white or navy blue. But by the sound of it it could be a tough job for a newbie in the paint business.

So I guess the question is should I put this aside for a project that is fine with the grain showing and get another one for this project? If so, what is the easiest wood to deal with?

TIA,
Geir :)

Michael Murphy · January 5th, 2004, 10:38 AM

Ash requires a lot of filler (and some ash even more than that)- it's a very porous wood.

Alder is a much more closed-grain wood. A lot of the time you can get away with no filler at all, just a few good coats of Sand and Seal will do the trick for the prep stages.

-Michael
Charter Member S. Texas He-Man Emoticon Haters Local #316

Caper · January 5th, 2004, 01:38 PM

I remember a clear sealer called XIM, we used it on vehicles that were in rough condition so the paint wouldn't dry in. It had very good build, and adhesive properties, I wonder if it would stick to wood?

Kevin · January 5th, 2004, 02:42 PM

Yeah, Geir... What they said.

I think the problem with that body was just that the veneer was so thin. I did exactly the same prep work on the Cashcaster body that I did to Lew's ash tele body, but it soaked in on the Cashcaster.

Granted, I let the sealer dry on Lew's for about a week before I sanded it out, whereas it dried only a couple of days on the Cashcaster. If I'd let it dry longer, I'd have probably seen the sinking then and been able to fix it.

The paint didn't soak down into the grain to an extent that you can feel the grain, there are just a few "wavy" spots in the finish that I know are grain lines.

If you use a good grain filler and follow the directions at the ReRanch site, you probably won't have any trouble, at all. I never have before this time, and if I did another one like it, I'd know to let the sealer dry a bit longer.

TeleGeir · January 5th, 2004, 04:07 PM

I think I will consider another body for that one.

Anyway, I wasn't completely accurate. This will be my second attempt at finishing a guitar. The first will be the mahogany Esquire. But I will be using a "laquer stain" as we call it in Norway for a transparent finish on that one. It is a fairly dark "mahogany red" colour. I hope that will give a classic mahogany look...

Geir :)

dawin12 · January 6th, 2004, 12:47 AM

I can see in the picture of your Esquire that the neck pocket has two indentations on either side of the butt end. I've also seen this in a couple of bodies on eBay. My question: since people have asserted that positive contact between the butt end of the neck and the body is more important than a tight fit on the sides, are those indentations something to worry about? Especially if I want to mill out a channel for truss rod access on a non-Esquire? I'm referring to earlier posts where people mentioned that gaps in their neck pocket didn't affect the sound of their 52RI, etc.

TeleGeir · January 6th, 2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawin12

I can see in the picture of your Esquire that the neck pocket has two indentations on either side of the butt end. I've also seen this in a couple of bodies on eBay. My question: since people have asserted that positive contact between the butt end of the neck and the body is more important than a tight fit on the sides, are those indentations something to worry about?

Personally; as long as the neck sits straight, I would not think it matters much. After all, the neck is screwed to the body with pretty heavy screws. That is where the pressure is. But others may think differently.

Geir :)

Kevin · January 6th, 2004, 09:43 PM

Quite a few Fenders (and some of the ones I make) have those. It can come from: A) using too large a router bit or B) the template getting worn.

As to whether it affects anything, it's hard to say. Some people say that it does, but I wonder if it's been empirically tested. It seems that it would do no more harm than the truss rod access rout.

Michael Murphy · January 8th, 2004, 12:01 PM

I don't know, Kevin. I think that's just the way current Fenders are made.

This is a pic of my '96 James Burton Standard:

Since it was cut on a CNC machine, I have to think it was done deliberately. Probably it's an assembly/setup/cost/production issue. I wouldn't be surprised to find that most (if not all) modern production Fenders are done the same way. All I know is I was real dissappointed when I went to change the pickguard and discovered that route.

The latest production year Fender I had until I purchased this guitar was a '63 Tele. It has the traditional tight, straight-sided route. Guess something's changed in the last 30+ years.

The body on the JB has since been replaced with a lightweight ash USACG body. It of course is vastly different sonically than the multi-piece poplar one it replaced, so how much of that can be attributed to the neck pocket I'll never know. Maybe some, maybe none- but I'll never buy another guitar with that route. It's just not acceptable to me (certified card-carrying Geezer Fuddy-Duddy type that I am...).

-Michael
Charter Member S. Texas He-Man Emoticon Haters Local #316

Kevin · January 8th, 2004, 12:24 PM

What we're saying is not in disagreement with each other.

The corners are like that in newer teles because the CNC machine has a bit in it that's too large to make the corners square. To get the proper radius in the corners of a tele neck pocket, you have to use a 3/8" bit. However, you really can't rout the entire neck pocket (let alone the body) with a 3/8" bit because it won't hold up.

Since changing the bit would take time (= money) Fender just uses the same bit that was in there (you can do an entire body -- with the notch -- with a 3/4" bit). The problem is that to get the corner deep enough with a larger bit, you have to round the edges somewhat.

Now, if this were being done by hand, one of the benefits to rounded corners is that it gives you a bit of "wiggle room" when aligning the neck. That's not really a problem with a CNC'ed body, though, cos everything was done without the body ever having moved -- the centerline remains absolutely constant.

Geir's body, however, was handmade -- not made on a CNC machine. Still, the reasons that I gave in my original post remain true. My own guess would be that the builder used too big a router bit to start with and has since enlarged the corners on his template by banging the bearings into it.

That's not a criticism, at all. I know this happens cos I've done it, too. In fact, just last week I made new templates because of that very problem. Since switching templates, I've started using a 3/8" bit to finish off the neck pocket.

bpoe · January 13th, 2004, 11:05 PM

I have to disagree, at least when using a "vintage" type neck.

I did my prototype tele bodies (on a CNC) with a 1/2" bit for the neck pocket, including the corners. The neck fits perfectly in the corners, and fits identically to my '58.

TeleGeir · January 14th, 2004, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpoe

I have to disagree, at least when using a "vintage" type neck.

I did my prototype tele bodies (on a CNC) with a 1/2" bit for the neck pocket, including the corners. The neck fits perfectly in the corners, and fits identically to my '58.

Still no disagreement, is there? Except maybe 3/8 vs 1/2".

Kevin if I understand him correctly says a larger bit is more efficient and holds up better in mass production, which Fender is obviously about. And that changing a bit in the middle of the job takes time. So Fender is using a big one - 3/4" - for the whole process, and therefore get the wide corners. You on the other hand are using a smaller one - 1/2" - for the neck pocket and get perfect corners.

Sorry to interfere, but this was "my" thread...

Geir :)

bpoe · January 14th, 2004, 09:40 AM

Yea, i agree on everything except for the ideal neck pocket bit diameter. In my experience, 3/8" diameter bit would make too small a radius in the neck pocket corner, and you'd see excessive "air" with the neck installed, at least with a "vintage" type neck (MIM classic or MIA reissue).
Here is the neck fit on a neck pocket done with a 1/2" diameter bit;

oh, and please don't rib me for overcutting the edge radius :) as this was body #1

January 5th, 2004, 09:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
TeleGeir Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 1,998	Body wood for a first time laquer attempt While I am sure Kevin is just trying to manage our expectations in his post about the Cashcaster on the main page: http://www.tdpri.com/viewtopic.php?t=12719, I guess we can thank him for the undoubtedly excellent result. Now the body that caused him so much trouble is one of two identical ones I had: I meant to finish the other one myself, in solid white or navy blue. But by the sound of it it could be a tough job for a newbie in the paint business. So I guess the question is should I put this aside for a project that is fine with the grain showing and get another one for this project? If so, what is the easiest wood to deal with? TIA, Geir :) __________________ "This is a room in Paul's house."

January 5th, 2004, 10:38 AM	#2 (permalink)
Michael Murphy Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: I can hit the Pacific Ocean and/or Canada with a rock from here... Age: 62 Posts: 1,073	Ash requires a lot of filler (and some ash even more than that)- it's a very porous wood. Alder is a much more closed-grain wood. A lot of the time you can get away with no filler at all, just a few good coats of Sand and Seal will do the trick for the prep stages. -Michael Charter Member S. Texas He-Man Emoticon Haters Local #316 __________________ *Just an analog boy in a digital world...*

January 5th, 2004, 02:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Kevin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 2,967	Yeah, Geir... What they said. I think the problem with that body was just that the veneer was so thin. I did exactly the same prep work on the Cashcaster body that I did to Lew's ash tele body, but it soaked in on the Cashcaster. Granted, I let the sealer dry on Lew's for about a week before I sanded it out, whereas it dried only a couple of days on the Cashcaster. If I'd let it dry longer, I'd have probably seen the sinking then and been able to fix it. The paint didn't soak down into the grain to an extent that you can feel the grain, there are just a few "wavy" spots in the finish that I know are grain lines. If you use a good grain filler and follow the directions at the ReRanch site, you probably won't have any trouble, at all. I never have before this time, and if I did another one like it, I'd know to let the sealer dry a bit longer. __________________ Of course, I don't see anywhere in my post that says it'll actually work...

January 5th, 2004, 04:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
TeleGeir Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bergen, Norway Posts: 1,998	Thanks guys. I think I will consider another body for that one. Anyway, I wasn't completely accurate. This will be my second attempt at finishing a guitar. The first will be the mahogany Esquire. But I will be using a "laquer stain" as we call it in Norway for a transparent finish on that one. It is a fairly dark "mahogany red" colour. I hope that will give a classic mahogany look... Geir :) __________________ "This is a room in Paul's house."

January 6th, 2004, 12:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
dawin12 Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hoboken, NJ Age: 38 Posts: 120	About that mahogany Esquire...... I can see in the picture of your Esquire that the neck pocket has two indentations on either side of the butt end. I've also seen this in a couple of bodies on eBay. My question: since people have asserted that positive contact between the butt end of the neck and the body is more important than a tight fit on the sides, are those indentations something to worry about? Especially if I want to mill out a channel for truss rod access on a non-Esquire? I'm referring to earlier posts where people mentioned that gaps in their neck pocket didn't affect the sound of their 52RI, etc.

January 5th, 2004, 01:38 PM	#3 (permalink)
Caper Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,169 7 Photos	I remember a clear sealer called XIM, we used it on vehicles that were in rough condition so the paint wouldn't dry in. It had very good build, and adhesive properties, I wonder if it would stick to wood?

January 6th, 2004, 09:43 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kevin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 2,967	Quite a few Fenders (and some of the ones I make) have those. It can come from: A) using too large a router bit or B) the template getting worn. As to whether it affects anything, it's hard to say. Some people say that it does, but I wonder if it's been empirically tested. It seems that it would do no more harm than the truss rod access rout. __________________ Of course, I don't see anywhere in my post that says it'll actually work...

January 8th, 2004, 12:01 PM	#9 (permalink)
Michael Murphy Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: I can hit the Pacific Ocean and/or Canada with a rock from here... Age: 62 Posts: 1,073	I don't know, Kevin. I think that's just the way current Fenders are made. This is a pic of my '96 James Burton Standard: Since it was cut on a CNC machine, I have to think it was done deliberately. Probably it's an assembly/setup/cost/production issue. I wouldn't be surprised to find that most (if not all) modern production Fenders are done the same way. All I know is I was real dissappointed when I went to change the pickguard and discovered that route. The latest production year Fender I had until I purchased this guitar was a '63 Tele. It has the traditional tight, straight-sided route. Guess something's changed in the last 30+ years. The body on the JB has since been replaced with a lightweight ash USACG body. It of course is vastly different sonically than the multi-piece poplar one it replaced, so how much of that can be attributed to the neck pocket I'll never know. Maybe some, maybe none- but I'll never buy another guitar with that route. It's just not acceptable to me (certified card-carrying Geezer Fuddy-Duddy type that I am...). -Michael Charter Member S. Texas He-Man Emoticon Haters Local #316 __________________ *Just an analog boy in a digital world...*

January 8th, 2004, 12:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kevin Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terre Haute, IN Posts: 2,967	What we're saying is not in disagreement with each other. The corners are like that in newer teles because the CNC machine has a bit in it that's too large to make the corners square. To get the proper radius in the corners of a tele neck pocket, you have to use a 3/8" bit. However, you really can't rout the entire neck pocket (let alone the body) with a 3/8" bit because it won't hold up. Since changing the bit would take time (= money) Fender just uses the same bit that was in there (you can do an entire body -- with the notch -- with a 3/4" bit). The problem is that to get the corner deep enough with a larger bit, you have to round the edges somewhat. Now, if this were being done by hand, one of the benefits to rounded corners is that it gives you a bit of "wiggle room" when aligning the neck. That's not really a problem with a CNC'ed body, though, cos everything was done without the body ever having moved -- the centerline remains absolutely constant. Geir's body, however, was handmade -- not made on a CNC machine. Still, the reasons that I gave in my original post remain true. My own guess would be that the builder used too big a router bit to start with and has since enlarged the corners on his template by banging the bearings into it. That's not a criticism, at all. I know this happens cos I've done it, too. In fact, just last week I made new templates because of that very problem. Since switching templates, I've started using a 3/8" bit to finish off the neck pocket. __________________ Of course, I don't see anywhere in my post that says it'll actually work...

January 13th, 2004, 11:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
bpoe Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 271	neck pocket corners, hmmmmmmmmmm I have to disagree, at least when using a "vintage" type neck. I did my prototype tele bodies (on a CNC) with a 1/2" bit for the neck pocket, including the corners. The neck fits perfectly in the corners, and fits identically to my '58.

January 14th, 2004, 09:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
bpoe Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 271	I forgot to mention what i disagreed to Yea, i agree on everything except for the ideal neck pocket bit diameter. In my experience, 3/8" diameter bit would make too small a radius in the neck pocket corner, and you'd see excessive "air" with the neck installed, at least with a "vintage" type neck (MIM classic or MIA reissue). Here is the neck fit on a neck pocket done with a 1/2" diameter bit; oh, and please don't rib me for overcutting the edge radius :) as this was body #1