Middle position out of phase- what's wrong?

Leon Grizzard · June 29th, 2008, 02:54 PM

I recently bought a used Classic 50's tele, which has the original pickups replaced. The middle position, my bandmates and agree, sounds out of phase. I have studied the wiring diagram from Fender, and my ignorant eye doesn't see what is different. I can post pictures, but what should be different about the wiring that makes it out of phase? I do see there is what appears to be an extra ground wire coming out of the body between the pickup wires and and jack wire, which is soldered to a lug at the base of the switch.

On a related note, can someone point me to a sketch or schematic of how the lugs and switch positions relate? I hope I asked that right.

stevieboy · June 29th, 2008, 03:34 PM

If you're basing your opinion of the wiring matching the diagram on the color of the wire, some MFRs (I seem to recall having a Duncan pickup like this) don't use the same color scheme, ie white and black, for hot and ground--that would be the simplest explanation, fixable by reversing the wires from one of the pickups. That's one possible explanation, anyway.

pengipete · June 29th, 2008, 03:56 PM

Are the pickups standard? Some replacement pickup are reverse-wound and reverse polarity which might explain it.

If that's the case and you like the individual pickups' sound then a 4 way switch would be worth looking at.

Leon Grizzard · June 29th, 2008, 04:49 PM

The bridge is a Fender Texas Special, and the neck is a Seymour Duncan. I don't care for the bridge pickup - too harsh; I ordered a set of Bill Lawrence pickups. I can just wait until they come, and see if the problem persists after I put them in. I was going to use the Classic 50's as a visual guide to change to modern wiring on my 52 RI, and so hoped to figure out before the wait on the BL's.

mellecaster · June 29th, 2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

The bridge is a Fender Texas Special, and the neck is a Seymour Duncan. I don't care for the bridge pickup - too harsh; I ordered a set of Bill Lawrence pickups. I can just wait until they come, and see if the problem persists after I put them in. I was going to use the Classic 50's as a visual guide to change to modern wiring on my 52 RI, and so hoped to figure out before the wait on the BL's.

Well there's your answer...Duncans have to have the wires switched to work w/ Fender Pickups...so a search on Out of phase wiring, and you'll see what I mean.

TeleLubber · June 29th, 2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

The bridge is a Fender Texas Special, and the neck is a Seymour Duncan.

I've had this problem as well with the Tex Spec and SD pups, and the simple fix was switching the leads on the SD pup - you switch the green and black wires, then phase is corrected. Hope that helps.

I agree Tex Spec pups are too harsh and furry - I ended up replacing with another SD...

mellecaster · June 29th, 2008, 05:06 PM

Here's a cut & paste from the Duncan FAQs on their Website

Yes they can be but Seymour Duncan and Fender pickups are magnetically opposite. Many players find that after installing a Seymour Duncan bridge single coil into a Strat they must switch the Fender mid and neck position pick ups both in the pick guard and in the wiring at the switch to keep the #2 and #4 positions noise canceling. There are exceptions to this rule though because Fender has changed their magnetic orientation several times in the last four decades. Generally with single coil pick ups it's easier to stick with one manufacturer to avoid the trouble of trying to figure out how to get all the pickups properly phased both electrically and magnetically.

mellecaster · June 29th, 2008, 05:09 PM

Another thing is to play w/ the height adjustment on the Texas Special, many folks run em up to high, and don't like the sound....try them set low, before you give up on em.

Mark Davis · June 29th, 2008, 05:52 PM

Tx specials like to be set lower than most pickups. I almost replaced my Strat TX Specials until I lowered them almost as low as possible then they sounded great took that harsh top end sound right off as if by magic.

I know there are thousands of stock pickups sitting in parts boxes that people never even tried to set at different heights just get a new guitar play it pickups dont sound good yank them out and replace them with some others that dont sound good! hahah I see it happen everyday.

Just a couple turns on those pickup adjustment screws can be a lifesaver.

Leon Grizzard · June 29th, 2008, 06:24 PM

I reversed the wires on the neck pickup and that did the trick. Thanks, guys. Thanks also for the advice on the pickup height; I'm still going to put the Bill Lawrence's on, but I'll hang on to these present pickups for a while instead of selling them as I planned - maybe the beginning of a build or upgrade or something.

TeleLubber · June 30th, 2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellecaster

Another thing is to play w/ the height adjustment on the Texas Special, many folks run em up to high, and don't like the sound....try them set low, before you give up on em.

I did lower them (the Tex Spec pups) and I got that SRV "magic-tone " happening, but for me the guitar was too one dimensional.. and I could still hear that fizzle that drove me nuts..

I'm happy you got your problem fixed Leon .. happy pickin!

Caper · July 27th, 2008, 02:52 AM

I just swapped the pickups in my son's Squier Fat Tele for a Rio Grande vintage tallboy in the neck and a Classic series bridge pickup. The middle position also sounded like crap until I reversed the leads on the neck pickup. I love the sound of this combination.

J. Hayes · July 28th, 2008, 01:48 AM

back when no one really wanted them. I was trying to make a living playing guitar and raising kids which was a hard row to hoe. Without much money to spend on guitar repair at the gig one night my neck pickup wouldn't work at all and it needed to be replaced.

I couldn't afford to buy a new one so I asked around and came up with a Fender steel guitar pickup from an old Stringmaster for free. It looked pretty much like a long tele pickup being it had 8 pole pieces. I took a screwdriver and chisled out the body to accomodate the extra length and wired up the white wire to the white wire, the black wire to the black wire and fired 'er up. I made another pick guard with a piece of "peel and stick" floor tile.

To my surprise, the middle position was now an out of phase sound which at the time I wasn't aware that that's what it was called. I just thought it sounded very nasal but was different and kinda cool so I left it like that. When I'd play ballads on the neck pickup up only, that old steel guitar pickup sounded great and I still had the classic bridge pickup sound an then the new thing in the center position.........

I eventually sold that guitar which now I kick myself for due to what '52 Teles are going for. But I love that "out of phase" sound and have it on two Teles right now and 4 Les Pauls..............JH in Va.

June 29th, 2008, 02:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
Leon Grizzard Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 59 Posts: 1,218	Middle position out of phase- what's wrong? I recently bought a used Classic 50's tele, which has the original pickups replaced. The middle position, my bandmates and agree, sounds out of phase. I have studied the wiring diagram from Fender, and my ignorant eye doesn't see what is different. I can post pictures, but what should be different about the wiring that makes it out of phase? I do see there is what appears to be an extra ground wire coming out of the body between the pickup wires and and jack wire, which is soldered to a lug at the base of the switch. On a related note, can someone point me to a sketch or schematic of how the lugs and switch positions relate? I hope I asked that right.

June 29th, 2008, 03:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
stevieboy Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: the valley Age: 57 Posts: 2,414 6 Photos	If you're basing your opinion of the wiring matching the diagram on the color of the wire, some MFRs (I seem to recall having a Duncan pickup like this) don't use the same color scheme, ie white and black, for hot and ground--that would be the simplest explanation, fixable by reversing the wires from one of the pickups. That's one possible explanation, anyway. __________________ "One of the best bands ever. These guys were such perfectionist"--Youtube user comment

June 29th, 2008, 05:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
mellecaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,776 17 Photos	Here's a cut & paste from the Duncan FAQs on their Website Yes they can be but Seymour Duncan and Fender pickups are magnetically opposite. Many players find that after installing a Seymour Duncan bridge single coil into a Strat they must switch the Fender mid and neck position pick ups both in the pick guard and in the wiring at the switch to keep the #2 and #4 positions noise canceling. There are exceptions to this rule though because Fender has changed their magnetic orientation several times in the last four decades. Generally with single coil pick ups it's easier to stick with one manufacturer to avoid the trouble of trying to figure out how to get all the pickups properly phased both electrically and magnetically. __________________ I have never owned an Ipod or Blackberry..and doubt that I ever will......

June 29th, 2008, 05:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
mellecaster Friend of Leo's Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,776 17 Photos	Another thing is to play w/ the height adjustment on the Texas Special, many folks run em up to high, and don't like the sound....try them set low, before you give up on em. __________________ I have never owned an Ipod or Blackberry..and doubt that I ever will......

June 29th, 2008, 05:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,876	Tx specials like to be set lower than most pickups. I almost replaced my Strat TX Specials until I lowered them almost as low as possible then they sounded great took that harsh top end sound right off as if by magic. I know there are thousands of stock pickups sitting in parts boxes that people never even tried to set at different heights just get a new guitar play it pickups dont sound good yank them out and replace them with some others that dont sound good! hahah I see it happen everyday. Just a couple turns on those pickup adjustment screws can be a lifesaver. __________________ I'm so blind my seeing eye dog needs glasses.

June 29th, 2008, 03:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
pengipete Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Gloucester U.K. Age: 47 Posts: 1,584	Are the pickups standard? Some replacement pickup are reverse-wound and reverse polarity which might explain it. If that's the case and you like the individual pickups' sound then a 4 way switch would be worth looking at.

June 29th, 2008, 04:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
Leon Grizzard Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 59 Posts: 1,218	The bridge is a Fender Texas Special, and the neck is a Seymour Duncan. I don't care for the bridge pickup - too harsh; I ordered a set of Bill Lawrence pickups. I can just wait until they come, and see if the problem persists after I put them in. I was going to use the Classic 50's as a visual guide to change to modern wiring on my 52 RI, and so hoped to figure out before the wait on the BL's.

June 29th, 2008, 06:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
Leon Grizzard Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Austin, Texas Age: 59 Posts: 1,218	I reversed the wires on the neck pickup and that did the trick. Thanks, guys. Thanks also for the advice on the pickup height; I'm still going to put the Bill Lawrence's on, but I'll hang on to these present pickups for a while instead of selling them as I planned - maybe the beginning of a build or upgrade or something.

July 27th, 2008, 02:52 AM	#12 (permalink)
Caper Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,169 7 Photos	I just swapped the pickups in my son's Squier Fat Tele for a Rio Grande vintage tallboy in the neck and a Classic series bridge pickup. The middle position also sounded like crap until I reversed the leads on the neck pickup. I love the sound of this combination.

July 28th, 2008, 01:48 AM	#13 (permalink)
J. Hayes Tele-Holic Join Date: May 2005 Location: Virginia Beach, Va. Posts: 974	Leon, years ago I had an old '52 Telecaster......... back when no one really wanted them. I was trying to make a living playing guitar and raising kids which was a hard row to hoe. Without much money to spend on guitar repair at the gig one night my neck pickup wouldn't work at all and it needed to be replaced. I couldn't afford to buy a new one so I asked around and came up with a Fender steel guitar pickup from an old Stringmaster for free. It looked pretty much like a long tele pickup being it had 8 pole pieces. I took a screwdriver and chisled out the body to accomodate the extra length and wired up the white wire to the white wire, the black wire to the black wire and fired 'er up. I made another pick guard with a piece of "peel and stick" floor tile. To my surprise, the middle position was now an out of phase sound which at the time I wasn't aware that that's what it was called. I just thought it sounded very nasal but was different and kinda cool so I left it like that. When I'd play ballads on the neck pickup up only, that old steel guitar pickup sounded great and I still had the classic bridge pickup sound an then the new thing in the center position......... I eventually sold that guitar which now I kick myself for due to what '52 Teles are going for. But I love that "out of phase" sound and have it on two Teles right now and 4 Les Pauls..............JH in Va. __________________ Ralph Mooney rules!!