1st Tomer: Gauged Nut Files or Swiss Needle Files?

[FenderGuy53]

Guys:

I own a Fender American Strat and Tele and a Martin acoustic/electric dreadnaught.

I've been reading up (Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide) and I think I'm almost ready to try to do my own basic setups (neck relief, saddle height, nut action and tremolo bridge). If I get good at it, I may do this for friends, too, but I don't intend to make this a business.

The only tool that I don't have, but think I need, is a tool to adjust nut action.

Here are my questions:

Do Fender and Martin nuts typically require adjustment, or are they within spec from the factory?

If adjustment would be required, should I use a gauged nut file set or would a Swiss needle file set be adequate?

Thanks for any help.

[Cross Roads]

Most of the time Fender and Martin is very close, maybe on the high side.

I do my own nut work, and know that I get dead on with this method.
1. Feeler Gage set. These are cheap at any hardware store, and highly accurate.
2. use a Dremel and a thin cut-off disc on the feeler gages (several blades at once) one side (about an inch) into a sawtooth pattern, do this with size .05 and up.
3. measure your desired relief and then cut and measure.

So if you need to cut an E- string a 5+6 = 11 9 -Depends on your string -choice.

if you know how to cut a nut, correct angle, height ect. this makes a cheap set of "files"

Or you can use the Popsicle stick and string trick (I was told in a post once that this is "old Fuzzy's" trick?

[cknowles]

As with anything that is done by hand, there is some variation.
I've played new guitars where the nut is almost perfect for me, others where the nut slots are cut too deep and others where they are not deep enough. Most new guitars from any manufacturer could benefit from a good setup.

If you're planing on setting up guitars as a hobby, I'd strongly recommend getting the nut file set from stewmac, they are purpose made for the job. I've never used a Swiss needle file set so can't say if it would be appropriate or not.

[Fatmanstratman]

After doing nut work for several years using a set of home-made "files" (which consisted of several types/sizes of hacksaw blades, machined down to be "near-enough" the right gauge) I decided to invest of a set of these files from StewMac:



Money well spent, IMHO. No more badly cut nuts, no more "buzzing" from the strings not being seated properly.

My old man always used to say "Buy the right tools for the job and they'll last you for a lifetime". He was right. You don't see too many professional techs out there hacking away on a new nut with a Swiss needle file set. And like you say - you can either lend them to your friends, or even offer to do nut work for them. You might be able to recover the cost of the correct tools in this way!....

[mellecaster]

I have absolutely No Idea what Cross Roads is talkin about ??...But you would do well to take the Fatman's advice, and invest in some Real Nut files from Stewart-McDonald.

[crowden]

The problem with the swiss needle files is that, although you can cut a groove with them, the bottom of the groove is not round. This is important because it is possible that open strings start sounding like a sitar if the slot isn't cut right.

I do my own setups and have for a long time. I used to use a modified set of acetylene torch tip cleaning files (you have to cut the tips off) which can be had for just a few bucks at Lowe's / Home Depot etc. but, the smaller files are hard to control getting a nice straight cut and a lot of care must be taken or it's sitar city. Maybe combining them with Ol' Fuzzy's Popsicle stick trick would work...

I decided to upgrade my nut slotting files from those rinky-dinks to a set of the feeler type except that I didn't make them, I bought them from an eBay seller (no affiliation). They work much better for me and are lots cheaper than the Stew-Mac set. They even come with a short instruction sheet (that you may or may not need).

I don't work on others guitars - never. And, I would advise you to consider that working on your own guitar is one thing but working on a friends is another. One "oops" and it could strain or even ruin a friendly relationship.

It's better to just advise them as to what services they need from a professional luthier and tell them something like "Hey, it's only $20, let a pro do it". Trust me on this one...

[FenderGuy53]

Originally Posted by crowden

The problem with the swiss needle files is that, although you can cut a groove with them, the bottom of the groove is not round. This is important because it is possible that open strings start sounding like a sitar if the slot isn't cut right.

I do my own setups and have for a long time. I used to use a modified set of acetylene torch tip cleaning files (you have to cut the tips off) which can be had for just a few bucks at Lowe's / Home Depot etc. but, the smaller files are hard to control getting a nice straight cut and a lot of care must be taken or it's sitar city. Maybe combining them with Ol' Fuzzy's Popsicle stick trick would work...

I decided to upgrade my nut slotting files from those rinky-dinks to a set of the feeler type except that I didn't make them, I bought them from an eBay seller (no affiliation). They work much better for me and are lots cheaper than the Stew-Mac set. They even come with a short instruction sheet (that you may or may not need).

I don't work on others guitars - never. And, I would advise you to consider that working on your own guitar is one thing but working on a friends is another. One "oops" and it could strain or even ruin a friendly relationship.

It's better to just advise them as to what services they need from a professional luthier and tell them something like "Hey, it's only $20, let a pro do it". Trust me on this one...

Good point... and good advice. Thanks.

[jefrs]

There are two type of nut files. The slotting files shown above will cut a parallel slot with a square bottom in a new nut, and what I call dressing files which cut a vee slot with a round bottom to suit the string.
imo the dressing files are needed on a fitted nut. Nuts are usually a trifle high when new (note pulls sharp at first fret) because you can only make the slots deeper. These files may be a bit thick, so use one size smaller than stated. File with the strings on, slip one at a time out of the nut, and only take a little off at a time, keep testing. Swiss needles files are too thick and the wrong shape.
I've posted this pic before:-
Attachment 10351
see also
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...-you-help.html

[FenderGuy53]

Originally Posted by Cross Roads

Most of the time Fender and Martin is very close, maybe on the high side.

I do my own nut work, and know that I get dead on with this method.
1. Feeler Gage set. These are cheap at any hardware store, and highly accurate.
2. use a Dremel and a thin cut-off disc on the feeler gages (several blades at once) one side (about an inch) into a sawtooth pattern, do this with size .05 and up.
3. measure your desired relief and then cut and measure.

So if you need to cut an E- string a 5+6 = 11 9 -Depends on your string -choice.

if you know how to cut a nut, correct angle, height ect. this makes a cheap set of "files"

Or you can use the Popsicle stick and string trick (I was told in a post once that this is "old Fuzzy's" trick?

There's a guy named Norman on Ebay who sells these for about $50, shipped; however, I've read some negative posts regarding durability. If I'm going to pay that much for a set of nut files, I think I'd probably go the Warmoth or Stew-Mac direction.

Thanks.

[FenderGuy53]

Originally Posted by jefrs

There are two type of nut files. The slotting files shown above will cut a parallel slot with a square bottom in a new nut, and what I call dressing files which cut a vee slot with a round bottom to suit the string.
imo the dressing files are needed on a fitted nut. Nuts are usually a trifle high when new (note pulls sharp at first fret) because you can only make the slots deeper. These files may be a bit thick, so use one size smaller than stated. File with the strings on, slip one at a time out of the nut, and only take a little off at a time, keep testing. Swiss needles files are too thick and the wrong shape.
I've posted this pic before:-
Attachment 10351
see also
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/telecaste...-you-help.html

Good stuff. Thanks.

[Cross Roads]

Originally Posted by mellecaster

I have absolutely No Idea what Cross Roads is talkin about ??...But you would do well to take the Fatman's advice, and invest in some Real Nut files from Stewart-McDonald.

I also agree with this advice, a good set of files would be nice, faster, and easier to work with, however they will not be more accurate.
You can make files out of feeler Gages.

The one above only costs $10.95, and has pretty much unlimited adjustments.

I agree about using the right tool for the job. This job needs something that will cut a slot in a nut that it precise and accurate. I would suggest there is not a set of files out there any more accurate than the feeler gage above.
A few minutes with a Dremel will make an extremely fine sawtooth pattern that will cut with ease.

[charlie chitlin]

I've made them from feeler guages.
First I rounded the blades with a file so the bottom of the slot would be round.
They cut slowly and are probably good for beginners.
Good for deepening a slot, but I doubt I'd want to cut an entire slot accurately.
I'm definitely going to make my next nut by myself, and I'll definitely buy a proper set of files to do the job.

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by Cross Roads

I agree about using the right tool for the job. This job needs something that will cut a slot in a nut that it precise and accurate. I would suggest there is not a set of files out there any more accurate than the feeler gage above.
A few minutes with a Dremel will make an extremely fine sawtooth pattern that will cut with ease.

I guess what I'm failing to understand is how you obtain the precise rounded cutting edge (to produce a round bottomed slot)...w/ a set of square edged feeler gauges ?...are you creating the teeth & the rounded profile w/ the Dremel ?

[eryque]

Norman's files are not cheap enough to make them worth buying. He simply notches square teeth into the feeler gauges, so the cutting action is not the greatest, and he does not round them very well.

If they were half the price of a basic set of StewMac files, that would be one thing. They're too expensive for what they are.

StewMac's files (pictured above) are not perfectly round, but they do a good enough job.

[lambchop]

Norman nut files are spot on for your average Joe who just wants to tweak the odd nut now and then. Ive used them to lower existing nut slots and to make nuts from blanks with no problems. The bases of the files are nicely rounded and the saw teeth whip through bone and tusq with no issues.

[crowden]

Originally Posted by lambchop

Norman nut files are spot on for your average Joe who just wants to tweak the odd nut now and then. Ive used them to lower existing nut slots and to make nuts from blanks with no problems. The bases of the files are nicely rounded and the saw teeth whip through bone and tusq with no issues.

+1

I have made both a bakelite nut and bone nut from scratch using them recently, they worked great and I was very pleased with the results.

[FenderGuy53]

Originally Posted by eryque

Norman's files are not cheap enough to make them worth buying. He simply notches square teeth into the feeler gauges, so the cutting action is not the greatest, and he does not round them very well.

If they were half the price of a basic set of StewMac files, that would be one thing. They're too expensive for what they are.

StewMac's files (pictured above) are not perfectly round, but they do a good enough job.

Do you know the quality of the Warmoth Nut Files? Those are supposed to be rounded, too, and can be had for a bit less than the Stew-Mac set.

Thanks.

[jefrs]

I used to persevere with swiss needle files and slitting saw, but after getting both types of proper nut files (slot and dressing, not feeler gauges) will never, ever, use the wretched things again. They are not cheap, they are down-right expensive, but they are a joy to use. The right tool for the job always is. If you have a collection of guitars they are well worth having.

The slotting files (not exclusive to stewmac) are square edged saws, no teeth on the sides. The dressing files are narrow vee with rounded bottom. The slotting files I use for the initial spacing cuts and I run them against a metal block to ensure they are square on and vertical to the nut. I cut to depth with the dressing file. If the slot is straight sided then a string may bind in it, or worse, a fat string may split the nut. The slots must not be too deep or the string binds, by which I mean the nut should not be too tall above the base of the slot - file the top of the nut down, but not too far.

I guard the fretboard and gauge the slot depth to the height of first fret with a metal 'Bostik' glue tube winder-key thing, tied capo-like under the strings, against the nut. I gently lever the strings out of the nut with a plastic bicycle tyre lever.

[tdowns]

The nut is one of the most important parts of your guitar. I can't speak for Martin, but I have never seen a Fender guitar with the nut cut correctly (except for ones I know have been worked on afterwards). Here is a post I started in 2004.

How Many Nuts Cut Correctly?

You will find the response from a Fender employee who had to cut 50 nuts a day to keep his job. It is easy to see why the nut slots are not the right depth. I can easily spend an hour on a new nut filing slots.

My opinion is...either buy the right files or pay someone to do it. Don't take a shortcut on your nut.

The nut is so critical to:

1. Intonation when playing on frets near the nut - they are rarely cut deep enough. Tune you guitar open and then play notes at the first fret on all strings while observing a chromatic tuner. Sharp city.
2. Tuning stability - a bent string results in the string sliding through the nut slot during the bend. The nut slot needs to be a low friction path for the string. Nut lube is also essential for good tuning stability. The first time I cut my own nut slots (with the right files) and used lube, I was stunned at the improvement in tuning stability. I bend strings like crazy anyway.
3. Action - close to the nut.

Big Bends Nut Sauce

No affiliation...but I should be as many times as I've recommended this product.

[mellecaster]

Originally Posted by tdowns

The nut is one of the most important parts of your guitar. I can't speak for Martin, but I have never seen a Fender guitar with the nut cut correctly (except for ones I know have been worked on afterwards). Here is a post I started in 2004.

How Many Nuts Cut Correctly?

You will find the response from a Fender employee who had to cut 50 nuts a day to keep his job. It is easy to see why the nut slots are not the right depth. I can easily spend an hour on a new nut filing slots.

My opinion is...either buy the right files or pay someone to do it. Don't take a shortcut on your nut.

The nut is so critical to:

1. Intonation when playing on frets near the nut - they are rarely cut deep enough. Tune you guitar open and then play notes at the first fret on all strings while observing a chromatic tuner. Sharp city.
2. Tuning stability - a bent string results in the string sliding through the nut slot during the bend. The nut slot needs to be a low friction path for the string. Nut lube is also essential for good tuning stability. The first time I cut my own nut slots (with the right files) and used lube, I was stunned at the improvement in tuning stability. I bend strings like crazy anyway.
3. Action - close to the nut.

Big Bends Nut Sauce

No affiliation...but I should be as many times as I've recommended this product.

Once again Terry, you are the voice of reason...everything you said above...and Folks if you want it done correctly...just give up your Starbucks and such for a week, and buy some Damn Nut files....I'm sure not rich...and I can afford them ........

[tdowns]

Originally Posted by mellecaster

Once again Terry, you are the voice of reason...everything you said above...and Folks if you want it done correctly...just give up your Starbucks and such for a week, and buy some Damn Nut files....I'm sure not rich...and I can afford them ........

Thanks mellecaster. You are the voice of reason too. I'm just glad we were able to get through this post without any competitive modeling comments.

If you go ahead and buy the files, you can charge your friends a modest fee for doing their nuts too, and help pay for the files.

TDPRI's own Rob DiStefano has a good online tutorial for nut cutting. Patience is key.