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emailhot · June 8th, 2007, 03:18 PM

Hey buck, can't wait to see the final product. i talked to our auto body gut at work, and he told me that when they painted metal flake on the cars, motorcycle helmets, etc. in the 70's the base color was laid down, and then the sparkle was mixed in with the clear coat. this way the clear coat keeps the sparkle from "standing up". I have never built a guitar but the thought has crossed my mind. he has said that if I ever want to build one he will paint it for nothing. I just bring the supplies. "however I'm sure that he would accept a case of beer for his time". Hmmmmm... a silver sparkle just like Don Rich....or maybe blue....or red....

ludwig · June 8th, 2007, 04:14 PM

nice.............errr.............bright!

i can see a thick 70's style poly clear coat coming on...probably the only thing that will cover those things

getbent · June 8th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Bucko,
you're gonna need some tassles for this guitar.... the key will will be if you can get the tassles going in opposing directions during mustang sally.

Buckocaster51 · June 8th, 2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by japasul

Hey buck, you could try and rout the body for binding AFTER the thick coats of clear have been applied... I dont know if the finish wouldnt crack though...!

That idea has come up before.

In talks with people that do this stuff all of the time, especially the binding, the consensus is that while yes, it can be done, it is very hard to do.

Fuzzy has installed binding on a painted body and "gotten away with it." I haven't tried it yet...but I do know that when I install binding it absolutely destroys the undercoat/primer that I put on before...what with all of the scraping, sanding, glueing, and filling that has to take place.

Of course, I just make this stuff up as I go along.

JohnnyAtomic · June 8th, 2007, 05:24 PM

subscribed.

I'm in for the ride on this one!!!

Yeah, me likey.

Johnny

milkshape · June 8th, 2007, 11:07 PM

Hey Buck, thanks for the application replies. 80% H.Q.P.D. applied? Are we shooting clear yet?

Buckocaster51 · June 8th, 2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkshape

Are we shooting clear yet?

Ah...that would be a "roger."

It is going to be slow-going though*.

Labor Day is starting to look like a good ETA for "first twang."

That's good.

and

That's bad.

If you know what I mean.

*unless of course I let Bob the Painter clear it with a new wonder-finish. "Better living through chemistry" and all that.

Buckocaster51 · June 8th, 2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emailhot

...i talked to our auto body gut at work, and he told me that when they painted metal flake on the cars, motorcycle helmets, etc. in the 70's the base color was laid down, and then the sparkle was mixed in with the clear coat. this way the clear coat keeps the sparkle from "standing up"...

that makes perfect sense. I think I remember reading about/seeing that back then.

There is definitely a lot of flakes "standing up" on this bad boy. But most of those bad boys go away with a bit of persuasion from a bristled brush.

I'd like to think that I am over the hump on this, but I think I just have the frame of the house up. The finish work ALWAYS takes longer.

If you know what I mean.

sean79 · June 8th, 2007, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Labor Day is starting to look like a good ETA for "first twang."

*unless of course I let Bob the Painter clear it with a new wonder-finish.

Naw... leave Bob out of this. You have plenty of guitars to play around with while you're finishing this one. You've started it, doggone it, now you've got to finish it.

celeste · June 9th, 2007, 08:52 AM

Hey Steve,

Here is a thought about bindings. If the binding were left proud of the surface and not leveled till after the color was done, you would not have to worry about taping off the binding or the precision scraping you have done before. In the case of this finish it would tend to be a "levy" and help the clear to build at the edges. Once the surface is flat, you could scrap the binding flush with the finish and clear the whole thing. Just a thought, offered free with a double your money back guarantee.

mojocasterman · June 9th, 2007, 10:14 AM

fantastic work as always!

Ronkirn · June 9th, 2007, 10:24 AM

So anyway... what kinda outfit you gonna wear while playing that rascal?

Ron Kirn

Buckocaster51 · June 9th, 2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

So anyway... what kinda outfit you gonna wear while playing that rascal?

Probably bibs and a TDPRI T-shirt.

High class all the way...as usual!

jimd · June 9th, 2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Since I got by fancy-schamcy respirator, it doesn't bother me to be around lacquer at all. I wish I had purchased one of those YEARS ago. Kids, make sure that you don't make the same mistakes a lot of us fossils have made. WEAR THE RESPIRATORS!

This may explain the strange urge to make pink (oops sorry melon) sparkly telecasters.

fenderix · June 9th, 2007, 12:15 PM

So far so good - I'm impressed! I understand there's a whole lot of work left, but you'll get there eventually ...

Nick JD · June 9th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Hi Bucko,

I thought you might like this:

Okay, so it's not a Tele - but it is a watermelon (albeit scratched up and seven years old now) I made in the back shed. Anyhow, it got me thinking about your "clear finish needs to be sooo thick" problem. Have you thought about using resin? Either epoxy or polyester. It's cheap, and goes on with a brush. Is cured enough to sand in a couple of hours - and if you've seen a surfboard or two - finishes to a sweet gloss with a bit of elbow grease.

My hollow-Tele build thread (Buttercaster inspired, cheers!) is coming soon and involves carbon/kevlar, Macassar Ebony, a whole lotta finger crossing and knockin' on wood.

NJD.

Buckocaster51 · June 10th, 2007, 03:58 AM

Surf's up!

Thanks for the tip on the resin. I'll look into it.

sprokett · June 10th, 2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

So anyway... what kinda outfit you gonna wear while playing that rascal?

Ron Kirn

moody suit?

BarnesTO · June 10th, 2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sprokett

moody suit?

LOL....you mean a Nudie suit?

Buckocaster51 · June 10th, 2007, 05:22 PM

I do wish I had a Nudie suit. They are about the slickest things...

The purplepinkpixiesprinklesparkledust is pretty much where it should be on the guitar...so I just sealed it all in with a REAL thick coat of rattlecan DEFT.

This is gonna be bad...

japasul · June 10th, 2007, 06:30 PM

Im thinking 2-part epoxy resin. Or another catalysed 2-part polimer resin, dont know what would be best. It shouldnt shrikn or expand.

But something you aplly using a brush or "scraper" would be quickier, IMO....

Cheers
André Ripoll

jwells393 · June 10th, 2007, 07:07 PM

Buck ................ I thought you were a Krylon/Deft guy like myself. What are you doing with that can of ReRanch?

Buckocaster51 · June 10th, 2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwells393

Buck ................ I thought you were a Krylon/Deft guy like myself. What are you doing with that can of ReRanch?

BUSTED!

What can I say?

They actually make good products. As far as I can tell, the colors are authentic/accurate and they appear to be a true nitro.

I think that can is from the sunburst I did on the Bendercaster a few years ago.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Rizo · June 10th, 2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Okay, so it's not a Tele - but it is a watermelon (albeit scratched up and seven years old now) I made in the back shed. Anyhow, it got me thinking about your "clear finish needs to be sooo thick" problem. Have you thought about using resin? Either epoxy or polyester. It's cheap, and goes on with a brush. Is cured enough to sand in a couple of hours - and if you've seen a surfboard or two - finishes to a sweet gloss with a bit of elbow grease.

Yeah, resin would definately cover it. You can lay that stuff on and it's crystal clear. When I was an art student some of the masters students used it alot. The only thing is, its very dangerous... sanding it presents huge and/or fatal problems and if you get the liquid in your eye it desolves your eye. Read the warning lables and take precautions!!!

Buckocaster51 · June 10th, 2007, 08:39 PM

This resin sounds neat.

Somebody tell me more about it.

How about a trade name that I can check out?

Not many surfboard shops here in Iowa.

japasul · June 10th, 2007, 09:02 PM

I used to use Polyesther resin a lot, which uses Methil-Ethil-Cethone-Peroxide as a catalyst....

They use it to make fiberglass.... I always bought it at a store where they sold Fiberglass supplies.

jwells393 · June 10th, 2007, 10:21 PM

Lowes, Home Depot and most hardware stores carry polyester resin in their paint departments.

Buckocaster51 · June 10th, 2007, 10:45 PM

I've been reading about a product called Famowood Glaze Coat that would seem to work...and it wouldn't be a budget buster.

Front, back, and headstock would be easy.

But how the bejeebers would you do the sides?

That has me puzzled.

Nick JD · June 10th, 2007, 11:20 PM

Bucko,

There are quite a few types of resin out there, all with certain properties that make them better at doing their own things. I use oodles of polyurethane (in a two part mix, by the 20kg drum, of polyol and isocyanate ... the isocyanate is a carcinogen - love the carbon filter mask!) but this foam has a "blowing" agent and makes rigid urethane foam for the inside of surfboards. There's also a non-rigid urethane foam that's probably in the chair on which you're sitting. I also use a lot of polyester resin and miles of glass fiber. But I'm getting away from the topic.

Most surfboards are made from polyester resin impregnated glass fiber - and this goes onto shaped urethane foam. Also becoming more popular these days are surfboards made from epoxy impregnated glass fiber over a polystyrene foam core. The reason you can't use polyester resin on polystyrene is because polyester contains a solvent called styrene which dissolves polystyrene! I've seen it happen - it looks like the faces of the ****s in the end scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark!

So there's the boring background about surfboards outathway.

Regarding guitars, (and not using any fiber reinforcing like glass, kevlar, carbon, hemp, cotton etc) using a resin as a finish there are three main options:

1. Epoxy

This stuff comes in a two-pack generally with a ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 resin to hardener. It has excellent bonding properties - especially with wood, and is extensively used in the boat-building industries. It can be tinted and pigmented, takes a standard (25 minutes) time to harden and is easily sanded. However, it does yellow with UV exposure - this could be a good thing in guitar circles...

2. Polyester

Comes as a resin with a catalyst - mix ratios are generally 100:1 resin to catalyst (MEKP) depending on ambient temperature (exothermic reaction). This stuff is not so bad on the skin as epoxy, but worse to breathe in - because of the styrene. If you don't use it every day it's pretty much harmless, but I wouldn't put my head in the drum. It doesn't bond as well as epoxy, is not a strong, but it's much cheaper (about half the price) and it doesn't discolour with UV exposure. It is primarily used with cheaper glass fiber cloth (whereas epoxy is used with the exotic cloths like carbon and kevlar and nomex and some other unobtainium cloths). Polyester needs to have a liquid wax additive (which blocks oxygen) to have a "sandable" finish. If multiple layers are being done, each layer doesn't need the wax additive until the last sanded layer.

3. Vinylester

Similar to polyester. Hard to work with, brittle, but strong and will withstand solvents.

Polyester will probably bond okay to your sparkles and the underlying paint (was the paint keyed with some 220 sandpaper?) and won't yellow with age. It's cheap - $10 a kg.

If you decide to bury those sparkles under a quarter inch of clear resin I'd suggest first doing the whole procedure on a scrap piece and both testing the durability and practicing spreading (you spread it with the brush rather than painting - it's that thick) it and letting gravity be your sander first and foremost.

Finishing is the same, run-through the grits. 80, 120, 220, 400wet, 800wet, 1200wet and cutting compound buffing.

This is a video of "glassing" a surfboard. Note the spreading of the green "filler" coat at about 50 seconds in. That's what you'd be doing without the green pigment, just clear. Quick is good! The stuff hardens in 10 minutes at 25 degrees C with 1% catalyst! The percentage of the catalyst gives you control over the hardening time.

All in all, it's pretty easy stuff to work with, and cheap enough to experiment lots - with a bit of glass fiber and resin you can build just about anything. With a heap of carbon fiber and a bucket of high-end epoxy you can build a race car chassis or a Boeing 787.

Nick.

sprokett · June 10th, 2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarnesTO

LOL....you mean a Nudie suit?

my bad.

Nick JD · June 11th, 2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

I've been reading about a product called Famowood Glaze Coat that would seem to work...and it wouldn't be a budget buster.

Front, back, and headstock would be easy.

But how the bejeebers would you do the sides?

That has me puzzled.

To do the sides would be easy. First though, there's a term in fiberglassing called "green trimming". "Green" is a phase the resin goes through where it is neither liquid, nor a solid. If you just make up a few mills of polyester resin and catalyst for a tester to see, after ten minutes it starts to "gel" a bit like jello in the fridge. This is the point where you can no longer "work" the resin - and it's when the monomer (ester) bits start to hold hands with each other and start to be a polymer. Another ten or twenty minutes later it resembles rubber and is easy to cut with a sharp blade (much easier than sanding when rock hard). This is "green trimming". The resin is hard enough to not move, but soft enough to carve.

So if you mask up the sides and do the top, the resin coat will flow slightly over the edge before it hardens (gravity is an ally) where the binding would be, and onto the tape. Simply (carefully) peel the tape off during the jell phase, and before the rubber phase. You'll have a nice clean line - albeit a slightly sticking up line. When it's properly rubbery, you can trim it with a razor blade, or just leave it if you love sanding.

So now your bottom and top have a slight lip of resin overhanging, creating a sink for the sides. Tape the top and bottom and coat the sides - removing masking, and green trimming before it hardens.

In theory, you could keep adding more and more layers this way until you had an inch thick coat over the whole body.

Nick.

Check this out for a polyester resin "Hot Coat" (in Australia called a filler coat) - this guy is working quickly so gravity flattens the resin to a mirror finish and the sanders have virtually nothing to do.

And the final "gloss" coat.

Buckocaster51 · June 11th, 2007, 09:21 AM

Nick, many thanks for all of the detailed information!

That sounds like REALLY neat stuff...I wonder how it has escaped my attention all of this time. Sort of like I have been living in a cave.

1charger69 · June 11th, 2007, 05:10 PM

i tackled a strat project last year using the same steps you did - i was going to do a Joe Bonnamassa gold metal flake replica strat- you can see a pic of it on my myspace page - saddleupjay is the name What an absolute pain in the ass it was- if i ever do another i will find a more "correct" way of doing it!!!! It took 6 months to do the body- and over a gallon of clear that i brushed on once i had the flakes "set" to speed up the thickness of the coats - i had to shim the neck using another neck plate sandwiched in between because the finish was so thick - the end results looked amazing but it weighed 12 pounds and with my back it was just too heavy!- so i sold it on the bay - i made a real tiny profit from it not including my labor - ahh it was fun for the first 2 months then it became a real drag. oh yeah - its inevitable - you will sand through at some point into some flakes-- you have to manually pick them out with an exacto blade---real fun!!!

Buckocaster51 · June 11th, 2007, 07:15 PM

1Charger...I'm reading you loud and clear. If I stick with lacquer it WILL take forever.

This is what I have after today's first wet coat.

Like I said before, I'm not too worried about the edges as I plan to paint on some faux bindings (is that redundant?) if the thing ever gets leveled.

You can see how EACH and EVERY one of those flakes is standing proud of the background.

My oh my!

I guess I'd better get another project or two going to work on during the drying/outgassing periods.

1charger69 · June 11th, 2007, 08:38 PM

yup--looks REAL familiar!!! -a long long road ahead!!! on a down side note--the thicker you make the DEFT the yellower it gets and it will take some of the sparkle effect away also - mine was gold flake so it really didnt matter - i think if i was to do it again - i would spray a base color first and then lightly sprinkle the flakes so they lay flat on the wet color finish - wait till dry - brush off what dont stick - then start to spray on the clear, lightly sprinkling the flake again so it lays flat- and repeat untill the desired effect is acheived - those "little soldier" flakes that stick straight up are what kills the "thickness"

Tedecaster · June 11th, 2007, 10:34 PM

Steve, you might check out West System epoxy. It's a marine product but we used to use it for alot of stuff making props & scenery. It dries very hard & is sandable. Not cheap but it would build quick. I never tried to "finish" it but those boat guys get a pretty good gloss.

tdowns · June 11th, 2007, 10:55 PM

Bucko,
YOU are da man!! This is most interesting, but where do you get all the patience?

All the best with your endeavor.

Uhhhh...I recommend this Webb Pierce attire.

Nick JD · June 12th, 2007, 12:49 AM

For a sparklecaster I would paint the base colour coat (acrylic lacquer, not enamel [enamel+polyester=runs]) and give it a quick sand with 220 when fully dry (just to rough it up a little).

Then, for the back of the body I'd pour about 70-100ml (probably too much, but hey, it's cheap) polyester resin in a jar.

Then I'd add sparkles to taste and stir. Tape and masking paper up apex of body edge, pup routs and neck pocket. Add 1% (about a ml) catalyst to resin and stir for ten seconds (Oh - fill ferrule holes with wax or plasticine!).

Pour all the sparkly resin on the middle of the body and spread evenly using light brush strokes side to side and up and down. Once it's reasonably uniform, clean the brush in acetone and like an undisturbed puddle, it'll flatten like a mirror. I wouldn't be tempted to keep working it - it'll flatten - something weird happens when it starts to "go off" that seems to make it flatten and the brush-strokes disappear.

I'd repeat this process again but this time without sparkles to both get some depth in the finish, and cover any sparkles that stand out of the resin. BUT

I'd stir (throughly), 2.5ml of wax additive into this layer making it sandable. Ratio is 25ml per 1000ml for sandable polyester.

The next day I'd sand it with 120 and then 220 to achieve a perfectly flat surface and then repeat the second process with slightly less resin, as a finish coat.

I'd sand this finish coat starting with 220 all the way to 1200 and a polish.

...I've done exactly this with a surfboard and it looked great. The only contentious issue might be the resin's bond to the paint, but then again guitars aren't thrown onto roofs of cars and against rocks, so I'm sure it'll be stronger that any nitro finish and a lot sexier.

Now look what you've done. I wanna make a sparklecaster too.

There's probably a million other ways you could also do sparkles, but that's how I'd tackle it.

Nick.

Buckocaster51 · June 12th, 2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick JD

Now look what you've done. I wanna make a sparklecaster too.

Look what YOU'VE done!

I'm going to have to do another!

Your advice and insight on this is invaluable.

Nick JD · June 12th, 2007, 01:59 AM

I had a sore back for two days from a prolonged encounter with your last build thread (I read it in one sitting) and like so many others, I too went out and bought a lump of wood with a level of confidence I would have never before reading your great build.

Now the first of many problems is whether it's still a Tele if it has a Strat neck.

I have a MIM Strat rosewood neck going on a Tasmanian Oak-Carbon/Kevlar hollow Tele body (not thinline - will have a soundboard) with a couple of humbuckers (and a piezo) and ludicrously expensive Macassar Ebony front and back. It should look sweeeet - striped ebony like this Maton:

But a Tele, of course ... with a strat neck

I'll need lots of help!

So I'll start a build thread soon (and stop hijacking this one) for all my hair-pulling questions and everyone to have a good laugh at someone making a Tele without a router.

Nick.

June 8th, 2007, 03:18 PM	#81 (permalink)
emailhot Tele-Meister Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Leduc, Alberta, Canada Age: 37 Posts: 221 3 Photos	Hey buck, can't wait to see the final product. i talked to our auto body gut at work, and he told me that when they painted metal flake on the cars, motorcycle helmets, etc. in the 70's the base color was laid down, and then the sparkle was mixed in with the clear coat. this way the clear coat keeps the sparkle from "standing up". I have never built a guitar but the thought has crossed my mind. he has said that if I ever want to build one he will paint it for nothing. I just bring the supplies. "however I'm sure that he would accept a case of beer for his time". Hmmmmm... a silver sparkle just like Don Rich....or maybe blue....or red.... __________________ Ed Mailhot Modded Squier Vintage Mod now w/4-way and gfs pickups Aria Ad-28c W/b-band nady wireless Vox DA-15 &Crate Palomino V3212

June 8th, 2007, 04:14 PM	#82 (permalink)
ludwig Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: uk-london Age: 42 Posts: 657 26 Photos	nice.............errr.............bright! i can see a thick 70's style poly clear coat coming on...probably the only thing that will cover those things __________________ "hanging on in quiet desperation is the english way" paul

June 8th, 2007, 05:24 PM	#85 (permalink)
JohnnyAtomic Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 1,397	subscribed. I'm in for the ride on this one!!! Yeah, me likey. Johnny __________________ flaming hamper of rock! www.myspace.com/johnnyatomicmusic

June 8th, 2007, 11:07 PM	#86 (permalink)
milkshape Tele-Holic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: New England Posts: 516	Hey Buck, thanks for the application replies. 80% H.Q.P.D. applied? Are we shooting clear yet? __________________ No hurries, No worries.

June 9th, 2007, 10:14 AM	#91 (permalink)
mojocasterman Friend of Leo's Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,583	fantastic work as always! __________________ Scott Lentz T - Crook Custom T & S - Fano SP6 - Huber Dolphin Jr - SRV Strat - Ovation Elite T - Swart AST - Carr Mercury - Fender Tweed Blues Junior. Follow me on Twitter! @MojoCaster

June 8th, 2007, 05:16 PM	#83 (permalink)
getbent Moderator Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: San Benito County, California Posts: 13,670 37 Photos	Bucko, you're gonna need some tassles for this guitar.... the key will will be if you can get the tassles going in opposing directions during mustang sally.

June 9th, 2007, 08:52 AM	#90 (permalink)
celeste Tele-Holic Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Maryland Age: 48 Posts: 598 21 Photos	Hey Steve, Here is a thought about bindings. If the binding were left proud of the surface and not leveled till after the color was done, you would not have to worry about taping off the binding or the precision scraping you have done before. In the case of this finish it would tend to be a "levy" and help the clear to build at the edges. Once the surface is flat, you could scrap the binding flush with the finish and clear the whole thing. Just a thought, offered free with a double your money back guarantee.

June 9th, 2007, 10:24 AM	#92 (permalink)
Ronkirn VENDOR Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Age: 63 Posts: 3,919	So anyway... what kinda outfit you gonna wear while playing that rascal? Ron Kirn __________________ www.ronkirn.com

June 9th, 2007, 12:15 PM	#95 (permalink)
fenderix Friend of Leo's Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Europe Posts: 3,776	So far so good - I'm impressed! I understand there's a whole lot of work left, but you'll get there eventually ...

June 9th, 2007, 10:35 PM	#96 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 37 Posts: 4,850	Hi Bucko, I thought you might like this: Okay, so it's not a Tele - but it is a watermelon (albeit scratched up and seven years old now) I made in the back shed. Anyhow, it got me thinking about your "clear finish needs to be sooo thick" problem. Have you thought about using resin? Either epoxy or polyester. It's cheap, and goes on with a brush. Is cured enough to sand in a couple of hours - and if you've seen a surfboard or two - finishes to a sweet gloss with a bit of elbow grease. My hollow-Tele build thread (Buttercaster inspired, cheers!) is coming soon and involves carbon/kevlar, Macassar Ebony, a whole lotta finger crossing and knockin' on wood. NJD.

June 10th, 2007, 03:58 AM	#97 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	Surf's up! Thanks for the tip on the resin. I'll look into it. __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 10th, 2007, 05:22 PM	#100 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	I do wish I had a Nudie suit. They are about the slickest things... The purplepinkpixiesprinklesparkledust is pretty much where it should be on the guitar...so I just sealed it all in with a REAL thick coat of rattlecan DEFT. This is gonna be bad... __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 10th, 2007, 06:30 PM	#101 (permalink)
japasul Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2007 Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil Age: 23 Posts: 377	Im thinking 2-part epoxy resin. Or another catalysed 2-part polimer resin, dont know what would be best. It shouldnt shrikn or expand. But something you aplly using a brush or "scraper" would be quickier, IMO.... Cheers André Ripoll

June 10th, 2007, 07:07 PM	#102 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 65 Posts: 14,280 101 Photos	Buck ................ I thought you were a Krylon/Deft guy like myself. What are you doing with that can of ReRanch? __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" I'm just not cool enough to be a Mac person.

June 10th, 2007, 08:39 PM	#105 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	This resin sounds neat. Somebody tell me more about it. How about a trade name that I can check out? Not many surfboard shops here in Iowa. __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 10th, 2007, 09:02 PM	#106 (permalink)
japasul Tele-Meister Join Date: May 2007 Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil Age: 23 Posts: 377	I used to use Polyesther resin a lot, which uses Methil-Ethil-Cethone-Peroxide as a catalyst.... They use it to make fiberglass.... I always bought it at a store where they sold Fiberglass supplies.

June 10th, 2007, 10:21 PM	#107 (permalink)
jwells393 Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Albuquerque, USA Age: 65 Posts: 14,280 101 Photos	Lowes, Home Depot and most hardware stores carry polyester resin in their paint departments. __________________ Jack's Disclaimer: When I say something.... always ask yourself ..... "What the hell does he know?" I'm just not cool enough to be a Mac person.

June 10th, 2007, 10:45 PM	#108 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	I've been reading about a product called Famowood Glaze Coat that would seem to work...and it wouldn't be a budget buster. Front, back, and headstock would be easy. But how the bejeebers would you do the sides? That has me puzzled. __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 10th, 2007, 11:20 PM	#109 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 37 Posts: 4,850	Bucko, There are quite a few types of resin out there, all with certain properties that make them better at doing their own things. I use oodles of polyurethane (in a two part mix, by the 20kg drum, of polyol and isocyanate ... the isocyanate is a carcinogen - love the carbon filter mask!) but this foam has a "blowing" agent and makes rigid urethane foam for the inside of surfboards. There's also a non-rigid urethane foam that's probably in the chair on which you're sitting. I also use a lot of polyester resin and miles of glass fiber. But I'm getting away from the topic. Most surfboards are made from polyester resin impregnated glass fiber - and this goes onto shaped urethane foam. Also becoming more popular these days are surfboards made from epoxy impregnated glass fiber over a polystyrene foam core. The reason you can't use polyester resin on polystyrene is because polyester contains a solvent called styrene which dissolves polystyrene! I've seen it happen - it looks like the faces of the ***s in the end scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark!* So there's the boring background about surfboards outathway. Regarding guitars, (and not using any fiber reinforcing like glass, kevlar, carbon, hemp, cotton etc) using a resin as a finish there are three main options: 1. Epoxy This stuff comes in a two-pack generally with a ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 resin to hardener. It has excellent bonding properties - especially with wood, and is extensively used in the boat-building industries. It can be tinted and pigmented, takes a standard (25 minutes) time to harden and is easily sanded. However, it does yellow with UV exposure - this could be a good thing in guitar circles... 2. Polyester Comes as a resin with a catalyst - mix ratios are generally 100:1 resin to catalyst (MEKP) depending on ambient temperature (exothermic reaction). This stuff is not so bad on the skin as epoxy, but worse to breathe in - because of the styrene. If you don't use it every day it's pretty much harmless, but I wouldn't put my head in the drum. It doesn't bond as well as epoxy, is not a strong, but it's much cheaper (about half the price) and it doesn't discolour with UV exposure. It is primarily used with cheaper glass fiber cloth (whereas epoxy is used with the exotic cloths like carbon and kevlar and nomex and some other unobtainium cloths). Polyester needs to have a liquid wax additive (which blocks oxygen) to have a "sandable" finish. If multiple layers are being done, each layer doesn't need the wax additive until the last sanded layer. 3. Vinylester Similar to polyester. Hard to work with, brittle, but strong and will withstand solvents. Polyester will probably bond okay to your sparkles and the underlying paint (was the paint keyed with some 220 sandpaper?) and won't yellow with age. It's cheap - $10 a kg. If you decide to bury those sparkles under a quarter inch of clear resin I'd suggest first doing the whole procedure on a scrap piece and both testing the durability and practicing spreading (you spread it with the brush rather than painting - it's that thick) it and letting gravity be your sander first and foremost. Finishing is the same, run-through the grits. 80, 120, 220, 400wet, 800wet, 1200wet and cutting compound buffing. This is a video of "glassing" a surfboard. Note the spreading of the green "filler" coat at about 50 seconds in. That's what you'd be doing without the green pigment, just clear. Quick is good! The stuff hardens in 10 minutes at 25 degrees C with 1% catalyst! The percentage of the catalyst gives you control over the hardening time. All in all, it's pretty easy stuff to work with, and cheap enough to experiment lots - with a bit of glass fiber and resin you can build just about anything. With a heap of carbon fiber and a bucket of high-end epoxy you can build a race car chassis or a Boeing 787. Nick.

June 11th, 2007, 09:21 AM	#112 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	Nick, many thanks for all of the detailed information! That sounds like REALLY neat stuff...I wonder how it has escaped my attention all of this time. Sort of like I have been living in a cave. __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 11th, 2007, 05:10 PM	#113 (permalink)
1charger69 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Latrobe Pa Age: 37 Posts: 138	i tackled a strat project last year using the same steps you did - i was going to do a Joe Bonnamassa gold metal flake replica strat- you can see a pic of it on my myspace page - saddleupjay is the name What an absolute pain in the ass it was- if i ever do another i will find a more "correct" way of doing it!!!! It took 6 months to do the body- and over a gallon of clear that i brushed on once i had the flakes "set" to speed up the thickness of the coats - i had to shim the neck using another neck plate sandwiched in between because the finish was so thick - the end results looked amazing but it weighed 12 pounds and with my back it was just too heavy!- so i sold it on the bay - i made a real tiny profit from it not including my labor - ahh it was fun for the first 2 months then it became a real drag. oh yeah - its inevitable - you will sand through at some point into some flakes-- you have to manually pick them out with an exacto blade---real fun!!!

June 11th, 2007, 07:15 PM	#114 (permalink)
Buckocaster51 Poster Extraordinaire Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Iowa USA Age: 57 Posts: 8,396 1 Photos	1Charger...I'm reading you loud and clear. If I stick with lacquer it WILL take forever. This is what I have after today's first wet coat. Like I said before, I'm not too worried about the edges as I plan to paint on some faux bindings (is that redundant?) if the thing ever gets leveled. You can see how EACH and EVERY one of those flakes is standing proud of the background. My oh my! I guess I'd better get another project or two going to work on during the drying/outgassing periods. __________________ "If you can't say something nice... don't say nothing at all." - Thumper the Rabbit "An awfully lot of time can be wasted waiting for the right time." - Gunsmoke's Doc Adams

June 11th, 2007, 08:38 PM	#115 (permalink)
1charger69 Tele-Meister Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Latrobe Pa Age: 37 Posts: 138	yup--looks REAL familiar!!! -a long long road ahead!!! on a down side note--the thicker you make the DEFT the yellower it gets and it will take some of the sparkle effect away also - mine was gold flake so it really didnt matter - i think if i was to do it again - i would spray a base color first and then lightly sprinkle the flakes so they lay flat on the wet color finish - wait till dry - brush off what dont stick - then start to spray on the clear, lightly sprinkling the flake again so it lays flat- and repeat untill the desired effect is acheived - those "little soldier" flakes that stick straight up are what kills the "thickness"

June 11th, 2007, 10:34 PM	#116 (permalink)
Tedecaster Tele-Afflicted Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Greensboro, Vermont Posts: 1,018 26 Photos	Steve, you might check out West System epoxy. It's a marine product but we used to use it for alot of stuff making props & scenery. It dries very hard & is sandable. Not cheap but it would build quick. I never tried to "finish" it but those boat guys get a pretty good gloss.

June 11th, 2007, 10:55 PM	#117 (permalink)
tdowns Friend of Leo's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Wylie, TX US Posts: 3,106	Bucko, YOU are da man!! This is most interesting, but where do you get all the patience? All the best with your endeavor. Uhhhh...I recommend this Webb Pierce attire. __________________ Best regards, Terry Downs http://terrydownsmusic.com Equine quadrupeds may be coaxed to the reference of specific gravity but may not be compelled to imbibe thereof.

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June 12th, 2007, 12:49 AM	#118 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 37 Posts: 4,850	For a sparklecaster I would paint the base colour coat (acrylic lacquer, not enamel [enamel+polyester=runs]) and give it a quick sand with 220 when fully dry (just to rough it up a little). Then, for the back of the body I'd pour about 70-100ml (probably too much, but hey, it's cheap) polyester resin in a jar. Then I'd add sparkles to taste and stir. Tape and masking paper up apex of body edge, pup routs and neck pocket. Add 1% (about a ml) catalyst to resin and stir for ten seconds (Oh - fill ferrule holes with wax or plasticine!). Pour all the sparkly resin on the middle of the body and spread evenly using light brush strokes side to side and up and down. Once it's reasonably uniform, clean the brush in acetone and like an undisturbed puddle, it'll flatten like a mirror. I wouldn't be tempted to keep working it - it'll flatten - something weird happens when it starts to "go off" that seems to make it flatten and the brush-strokes disappear. I'd repeat this process again but this time without sparkles to both get some depth in the finish, and cover any sparkles that stand out of the resin. BUT I'd stir (throughly), 2.5ml of wax additive into this layer making it sandable. Ratio is 25ml per 1000ml for sandable polyester. The next day I'd sand it with 120 and then 220 to achieve a perfectly flat surface and then repeat the second process with slightly less resin, as a finish coat. I'd sand this finish coat starting with 220 all the way to 1200 and a polish. ...I've done exactly this with a surfboard and it looked great. The only contentious issue might be the resin's bond to the paint, but then again guitars aren't thrown onto roofs of cars and against rocks, so I'm sure it'll be stronger that any nitro finish and a lot sexier. Now look what you've done. I wanna make a sparklecaster too. There's probably a million other ways you could also do sparkles, but that's how I'd tackle it. Nick.

June 12th, 2007, 01:59 AM	#120 (permalink)
Nick JD Friend of Leo's Join Date: May 2007 Location: North NSW, Australia Age: 37 Posts: 4,850	I had a sore back for two days from a prolonged encounter with your last build thread (I read it in one sitting) and like so many others, I too went out and bought a lump of wood with a level of confidence I would have never before reading your great build. Now the first of many problems is whether it's still a Tele if it has a Strat neck. I have a MIM Strat rosewood neck going on a Tasmanian Oak-Carbon/Kevlar hollow Tele body (not thinline - will have a soundboard) with a couple of humbuckers (and a piezo) and ludicrously expensive Macassar Ebony front and back. It should look sweeeet - striped ebony like this Maton: But a Tele, of course ... with a strat neck I'll need lots of help! So I'll start a build thread soon (and stop hijacking this one) for all my hair-pulling questions and everyone to have a good laugh at someone making a Tele without a router. Nick.