The Buttercaster Project

[Ronkirn]

Do you kids have any ideas?

Been there… dun dat…….

Here’s what I did. . . go to any well stocked hobby shop…. They will have a supply of K&S brass . . . tubing, sheet metal, rod… etc…. the larger brass tubing is a precision fit going from one to the next….take your router bit, find the one that fits snugly over the bearing….cut a short section to make a sleeve. . Ummm after buying it..... use the next larger to make another sleeve. A dab of CA will hold everything in place…

you can get pretty close this way….

Ron Kirn

[Tedecaster]

Ronkirn's method looks like the ticket, to me. Great solution.

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by 0le FUZZY

...I noe yew ain't payin me noe nevermind on iss but fi waz yew I'd place the vinyl tape in a strip jes unner the slot yew are routing and allow the bearing tew ride on it roun the body. It mite take a few layers tew make it thick enuff!!

DING DING DING DING

I think we have a winner!

This is such a great place. Within a couple of hours of posting a problem that has had me baffled for a couple of years now, I have a couple of good ideas to work on.

Nothing like "thinking outside of the box."

Fuzzy...I'm Dutch and never pay any attention to anybody...until I get between a rock and a hard place...then I'm all ears.

Thanks again guys.

[Tom S]

Another possibility is to head to your local Home Depot or other similar store and try to find some washers that are slightly larger than your smaller bearing that also fit the alllen screw (bring your calipers). It might be a longshot, but it's worth a look. If you can find them, just attach a few instead of the bearing.

Good luck with it! (I wondered why they gave you binding with that black bottom...it seemed a little thick.) If you want to eliminate it, you can clamp the binding between two boards with straight edges and sand it off (too bad you don't have a jointer, but they're more than $99.). Another option is to use the smaller bearing, glue in the binding, and sand off the excess. Of course, you will eliminate 0.22" of the width of the checkerboard.

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by Tom S

Another possibility is to head to your local Home Depot or other similar store and try to find some washers that are slightly larger than your smaller bearing that also fit the alllen screw (bring your calipers). It might be a longshot, but it's worth a look. If you can find them, just attach a few instead of the bearing.

Good luck with it! (I wondered why they gave you binding with that black bottom...it seemed a little thick.)

Another good idea.

re the black substrate (at least that's what I call it) on the checkerboard...that will become the inner line on the "binding" package. Custom Inlay actually made it up special for me. The stuff they normally make for banjo people has a white substrate.

It will look like this, except the flake will be bigger. We hope.

[reddogbass]

Lots of good suggestions here-

I'm fortunate enough to have a local hardware store that has a selection of router bearings in .010" increments to vary the depth of the rabbet. That's plenty close for most woodworking projects, but are only available for 1" bits.

If I were to improvise, I'd do something similar to Ron Kirn's solution. Find some bushing stock (or have your machinist make some) that fit the o.d. of the smallest bearing that fit your bit. Then have him grind the o.d. for the required depth of the rabbet. How many dollars you put into tooling depends on how much use it will get in the future.

I like the guide-in-the-base too, but since a guitar body is not a straight line, turning corners with one of these, and keeping the depth consistant, ain't all that easy. Stew-Mac offers a sytem for rabbeting for bindings... but it's only in a Dremel size tool/collet I believe. And we are supposed to what, with that?!

[Ronkirn]

Fuzzy's tape around the body presents a problem often unforeseen. As the bearing travels around the body, it will often freeze; this can be for a moment or for longer. If that happens and it’s riding on tape, the heat generated virtually instantly will melt the tape's adhesive, with unpleasant results.

Those little bearings can surprise ya sometimes even those on the rather expensive Freud, CMT, Amana, et al brands. This is why it’s a good idea to NEVER use plastic Templates... they melt instantly.. I routinely clean and lubricate 'em every time I use them.


Ron Kirn

[0le FUZZY]

it will often freeze;

...Throw the duck plucker out the window !!!

...Tools are good till they go bad. Fit don't go roun like it should onna shaft break out yer sling shot and shoot a mockin bird with it.

...I haff had my old B&D fer years and ain't hadda bearing lock up yet.

...But then again, yew kin alwayz postpone yer project fer weeks er months lookin fer the rite copper tubin er a nutter "rite" bearing iffin yew wanna.

...(Fer the tape I uze black lectrcians tape. It don't stick real bad and has a slick surface sew that iffin the duck-pluckin bearing catches a liddo it will still move along.)


0le FUZZY

[Tom S]

Originally Posted by reddogbass

Stew-Mac offers a sytem for rabbeting for bindings... but it's only in a Dremel size tool/collet I believe. And we are supposed to what, with that?!

I had the same reaction to that thing! It may work great, but I can never get comfortable with a dremel anyway, and the whole thing just doesn't look all that stable. But it does allow for any lateral depth of cut.

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Fuzzy's tape around the body presents a problem often unforeseen. As the bearing travels around the body, it will often freeze; this can be for a moment or for longer. If that happens and it’s riding on tape, the heat generated virtually instantly will melt the tape's adhesive, with unpleasant results.

The other thing that would worry me about the tape is that it will be prone to indentation even if it doesn't melt or tear. Slightly more pressure here or there could result in a wavy channel. If you're going to add something to the outside of the body to decrease the depth of the cut, it should be at least as hard as the wood.

Buckocaster, if you can find some very thin sheet metal, you could cut a strip and attach it with carpet tape to make up the 0.022" difference, assuming you can find it in the right thickness, or very close. However you ultimately approach this, you might want to consider using the larger bearing first to get a good, clean cut, leaving you with very little wood to remove when you go deeper.

[Buckocaster51]

No actual work on the Buttercaster(s) today. Life got in the way...and I am pondering how to cut that binding channel. So many good ideas!

But the project(s) progressed never-the-less...

A box of Glendale Wide Intone Twang compensated saddles arrived. I'll tell you one thing, these have put the joy of guitar (okay, I borrowed that from Esteban ) back into playing the Telecaster. Once set up, they just play in tune as far up the neck as I every want to play. Compensated saddles - they're a good thing! (Okay, I borrowed that one too.)

[mojocasterman]

Bucko, thanks for the continued info... and the fun sense of humor

[sprucetop]

Hey Buck

Thanks for the tutorial....you are a real hands on man
Looking forward to more pix and your completion

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by Ronkirn

Been there… dun dat…….

Here’s what I did. . . go to any well stocked hobby shop…. They will have a supply of K&S brass . . . tubing, sheet metal, rod… etc…. the larger brass tubing is a precision fit going from one to the next….take your router bit, find the one that fits snugly over the bearing….cut a short section to make a sleeve. . Ummm after buying it.....

Oh! that seemed like a good idea.

Yesterday life took me to the "city" on business. While there I went to "the hobby shop." I guess it isn't "well stocked."

So on to "Plan B."

This is the basic problem. I need to make a rabbet, or channel, the width of the binding and purfling. With my cutters, the closest bearing is way too small.



A few years ago I had pretty much the same problem (you might have thought that I would have found the right size bearing/cutter in the mean time...but that's not the "Buckocaster Style) and made the bearing bigger with layers of vinyl tape. It sort of worked. But the tape did melt once and sort of made a mess of things.

Ummm...

In the "guitar room" I found a roll of aluminum tape that I sometimes use to shield control cavities. (You know, aluminum conducts ALMOST as well as copper and is much cheaper.) I think it started out life as duct sealing tape and is REALLY sticky. So maybe...

With my tape, bearings, razor knives, calipers, binding samples, and a straightedge...



I cut a piece the width of the bearing and about the length of the circumference of the bearing. The tape sticks really well. The tape will be burnished on the bearing surface and edges with the handle of my trusty X-Acto knife.

[Buckocaster51]

About 10 layers of tape and bingo...

The too small bearing is just the right size.



If the tape is sticky enough and I take short passes through the wood and watch the heat build up, I think I will be okay.

Here is the sample I made.



It looks good. I am happy. This is A Good Thing.

If things go good, we'll do the top of the Martycaster tomorrow night.

Thanks again for all of the help, advice, and encouragement.

By the way...that little "sample" used up $0.30 worth of the checkerboard.

[mojocasterman]

woaw, 30 cents for that little bit? I can see why you keep to $99 and less tools to be able to afford that stuff

Thanks for the update! Always a thrill to read...

[jwells393]

Buck .............I've been away from the forum for a few days and missed some of the discussion about the wrong bearing size. Stew-Mac sells a binding bit and a bearing that will cut a 0.150 in. channel which seems close to what you need. However I don't know if the same bearing is interchangable with your bit or would give the same cut when used with your bit.

They sell the individual bearings but don't tell you the size of the bearings. They list the bearings showing the size channel they will cut when used with their bit. I have this bit and a couple of bearings. I could measure my bit for comparison with yours to determine if any of their bearings will give you the channel depth you need.

If your tape-laminated bearing doesn't work, let me know.

[Buckocaster51]

Here's today's big news.

I've taken my "modified" cutter and bearing to the body for the Martycaster. The 10 layers of the really sticky aluminum tape that I covered the bearing with - and heavily burnished the surface and edges - made the bearing just the size needed to cut the proper rabbet.

Because this whole thing is held together with stickum, I decided to keep the amount of wood cut at any time to a minumum and to let the cutter and bearing cool between cuts.

So far...so good.



With everything going good, I cleaned up the rest of the "big" rabbet. This is the rabbet that has to hold the side binding and the purfling made up of the black/white checks and the solid black inner line.



It worked!

The plastic fits great. You can even see the "router hump." (This, the body for the Martycaster, is a USACG body that I have had laying around. Sorry if this is confusing. The Buttercaster Project, has grown into the Buttercaster, Orangecaster, and Martycaster. The bodies for the Buttercaster and Orangecaster I made.) Looks like this USACG body weighs 3.9. But I don't know what units that is.

The last cut, for the big outside piece of plastic, uses the same cutter that I used last week on the Buttercaster and Orangecaster. This is an easy cut that doesn't need any special modifications to the cutter or bearings.



This is will be the last shot of the World's Worst Router (which must be a bad name because it has worked pretty good on this little project) and the Grizzly piloted cutters I have been using.

Next stope will be gluing on the binding and purfling.

Maybe I can get some sanding sealer on these bodies this weekend.

Thanks again for hanging with me on this little adventure.

[mojocasterman]

great work, man. This is great stuff! I had never seen the step by time of how a tele gets bound. Very instructional

[Buckocaster51]

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure this isn't how "real" Teles get bound.

Like Rob D said way back in this thread, this is genuine, honest-to-goodness guerilla guitar building.

Channel's cut, binding/purfling material is in hand...



Time to start glueing. No use for wimpy masking tape here. We're using the real deal - strapping tape - and going slowly.



I'll be busy for the next few hours...

[G Man]

Originally Posted by Buckocaster51

Thanks again for hanging with me on this little adventure.

No thanks are required. I check this thread everyday anxiously awaiting more on this project! Thanks go out to you sir!

G Man

[eryque]

Are you sure that the packing tape isn't going to pull off some wood when you remove it? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by eryque

Are you sure that the packing tape isn't going to pull off some wood when you remove it? Makes me cringe just thinking about it.

I don't think I would use it on spruce, but this Telewood has proven to be pretty tough. No problems so far.

Actually I switched over to the strapping tape not because of its stickiness but for the fibres that keep it from tearing when I pull the binding into place.

Now back to the "glue bench" again...

[Buckocaster51]

This has been going surprisingly well. The checkerboard is in pieces about 20" long. I have to make sure that I get "black" next to "white" (or visa versa) at the joins. (Some "chucklehead" that you all know managed to forget that little rule on a Gold Sparkle he did last year.)

The real "hard part" lies just around the next bend.



Of course the REAL hard part will be scraping these bindings clean after the color coat is applied.

[Clive Hugh]

Buckocaster, You have inspired me to do what I have often thought of - building my own, yesterday I ordered a template from Ron Kirn and am now rarin' to go. Thanks

[frank6v6]

Ahh...this is cool....

I'm currently in the middle of a similar undertaking. I've currently have 4 guitar bodies on the workbench in various stages of development:

1. Swamp Ash Telecaster - almost completed. need to decide whether to double bind or round over.

2. Alder Telecaster - just pattern routed. going to be double bound.

3. Alder Stratocaster - just pattern routed.

4. Alder superstrat - just pattern routed.



It's a bit overwhelming having 4 bodies in construction at once...and at one point I almost shelved everything except the swamp ash tele...but the way I figure, I'd rather get the guitar bodies done asap...so I can seize the opportunity when I get warm weather for shooting nitro...

-Frank

[T3L3CAST3R scr33nag3r]

this is one extensive thread!
cant wait to see it at the end!

[Buckocaster51]

Just back from the HS football game. The kids won. 8-0 now. Playoff bound. Not bad.

Time to coax a bit more that binding/purfling stack to bend around some of those bends. Just a little bit at a time. But it looks like we might get this finished tomorrow.

[guitarbuilder]

A nice thread. Where did you get the checkerboard binding? By the way your router was my first router in 1980, A plastic refurbished B and D from the B/D outlet store. $14 dollars if I recall correctly.

[mojocasterman]

great job so far! It should be a really sweet guitar...

[eryque]

Lookin' great so far!

FWIW, I found that scraping binding was a lot harder than it looked. A LOT harder. During one of my finish attempts on my last project I had a couple of mistakes that I'd managed to hide fairly well, but when I screwed up scraping the binding it was a good enough excuse to strip it and spray the color again.

The best method I found was to use 3M's fine line masking tape, which was the perfect size to mask the binding. After removing the tape I had to scrape only a little bit to clean up the line in a couple of places.

[sean79]

One of my favorite threads - it's looking great. I learn a lot here.

Of course the REAL hard part will be scraping these bindings clean after the color coat is applied.

I know I could wait until the steps and pictures are posted in this thread, but I'm a curious guy... What is the process for finishing a guitar with binding? Is it sanded flat with the sides of the guitar before finishing (can it be sanded)? Do you mask it for the color coats? Do you spray clear coat over it when clear coating the guitar? What has to be scraped from the bindings (and is it easy to damage the binding during this process)? I know these are a lot of questions, and it's not my thread, but you guys started it with all your talk about "scraping the binding." --Sean

[mojocasterman]

I was wondering about the finishing / painting part as well...

[daviddoubleu]

Me too. Great thread!

[eryque]

Sean, there a couple of different ways that people usually deal with bindings.

First, yes, you can sand binding, and it is sanded flush with the wood before anything else is done. There will often be a little bit of glue on the surface of the wood, so sanding removes that as well. You can also scrape it if you have a lot to remove and then sand the tool marks out of it. You'd have to be really, really clumsy to damage binding very much while doing this. And if you use the typical binding material you can repair it pretty easily by melting a glob of binding with acetone and patching the damaged area.

The way Gibson finishes guitars with binding is to spray color over the binding, scrape the color off of the binding, then spray clear over all of it.

The way I do it is to mask the binding when spraying color, then remove the masking tape and spray clear. A little touch up with a scraper is usually required to clean up the line before spraying clear.

[jwells393]

eryque ............... you might want to edit that last paragraph.

[Buckocaster51]

Originally Posted by sean79

... but I'm a curious guy... What is the process for finishing a guitar with binding? Is it sanded flat with the sides of the guitar before finishing (can it be sanded)? Do you mask it for the color coats? Do you spray clear coat over it when clear coating the guitar? What has to be scraped from the bindings (and is it easy to damage the binding during this process)? ...

Thanks again for the interest people. Some CA glue is setting up so I'll tell you the plans.

First you have to realize that I'm not a luthier nor do I play one on TV - I'm making this up as I go along. But... (you knew was coming) between acoustics and electrics I have bound about a dozen guitars...so what I am making up is working for me.

After the binding is in place I sand everything down - wood and binding - with 80 grit hoping the glue doesn't let go or the binding melt. Once that is done I go up through the grits to 220. At this point the edge of the binding is probably pretty "square" or "sharp" and will need to be gently knocked down.

Finishing process goes as normal, depending upon whether it is solid or natural. But someplace along the line, before the final clear is put on, and it goes over everything, including the binding, the binding needs to be "scraped."

Scraping the binding is just like using a scraper to scrape wood - sort of - but nobody does that much these days ...

A sharp edge is held more or less perpendicular to the binding and "scraped" along the surface - removing the layers of finish that have built up - and (hopefully) leaving behind a nice SMOOTH layer of plastic that is much smoother than you can get by sanding. Tools I have used to do this include: the sharp edge of a razor blade, the unsharp edge end of a razor blade, a #11 razor knife blade, a utility knife blade, and my current favorite - a glass microscope slide (I am a HS science teacher after all ) - with all of these, liberal application of masking/duct tape is needed to cover up the sharp finger-slicing edges.

They all seem to work - sort of.

It is really a a learned skill. I bet the workers in factories can do it almost with their eyes closed. The part that is most frustrating is "getting close" to the plastic/wood boundary without going over. Scraping through the color and into the wood pretty much means you're going back to the paint booth. I try to fashion "guage blocks" around the scraper at the appropriate distance to scrape most, but not all, of the finish off the binding. I've used masking tape, and duct tape (sometimes reinforced with a drop of CA) for this...just wrap it around and around to build a "ledge" that will keep the end of the scraper in the right place. Usually sort of kind of maybe works.

I have had mediocre success at masking off the binding before the color coat. That's how I did the binding on the acoustic OM in my avatar. Masked it off with 3M striping tape. If you look closely you will see just a little bit of white peaking through and some finely feathered edges where I sanded through...didn't try to fix it because by then I was punch drunk on that little project.





Wow! Look at the action on that guitar!

Doing this does keep me out of the bars.

Of course there are other approaches to binding. Some people mask off and spray on solid color bindings. Some PRS guitars I've seen have "binding" that is the masked off, natural, wood showing through the translucent color coat. You can even use vinyl tape to create the entire binding.

'Tis loads of fun.

[Buckocaster51]

During the time it took to write that last epic post, the CA hardened, and I was able to go back and finish it up.

That little "return" on the upper side of the neck is the hardest part for me.

Time to get out the big hardware and the "high tech" binding form.



I'll bet Gibson doesn't do it THAT way.

and here she is...the naked Martycaster. All I have to do is sand it. Sanding/sealer it. Prime it. Saphire Metalflake it. Scrape it. Clear it. Polish it. And then put the hardware on it.



It even has a decent looking "flat spot!"

That's all.

Of course that's all I have to do to the Buttercaster and the Orangecaster (maybe the Mandarincaster?)

Thanks again for letting me take you along for the ride.

[do not be afraid]

it seems to be coming along great, buckocaster51. i like the way it looks now, actually, without a finish. kind of like a maple-glo rickenbacker with checkered binding, but a telecaster. i'm sure the metal flake will look great too, though.

[eryque]

Originally Posted by jwells393

eryque ............... you might want to edit that last paragraph.

d'oh! thanks for catching that!

[Buckocaster51]

We played the Elkport-Garber (IA) Fire Department dance last night. Didn't get to sleep until almost 0400. You can guess how much I have gotten done today...

But I do have everything sanded to 220 grit. They are ready for the first coat of finish - which in this case is going to be DEFT Sanding Sealer.

Here is what they look like right now.







You know, upon further review, it's beginning to look like I have three different woods there. The top one is Alder and is destined to become the Orangecaster. In the middle we have Poplar that will become the Buttercaster. On the bottom is the Martycaster. That sure looks like Ash. Very closed grain. It might not even need filler.

I should keep better records.