Acoustic Feedback - Telecaster Guitar Forum
The Number 1 Fender Telecaster Guitar authority in the world.
   

Go Back   Telecaster Guitar Forum > The DIY Channel > Tele Home Depot
Forgot Username/Password? Join Us!

Tele Home Depot Building a T-Style guitar? From scratch or from parts. This is the forum for you.


Wilde Pickups by Bill & Becky Lawrence WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Amps, Mods, Pedals Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com seymourduncan.com


Forum Jump


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 15th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Acoustic Feedback

I'm bored! I can't use my shop at the moment - I'm working. The job slowed down, so I have too much time on my hands. When this happens I start to think too much. I usually dream about the current build or the next 5 or 6. Then, without any grand plan or parts list I start buying anything that looks cool on Amazon or fleaBay. This results in having parts for guitars I haven't really even thought about building yet and the cycle starts over.

So, here's a question for anyone that cares. If you were going to build an acoustic guitar (let's say an archtop with F-holes) and you wanted to put a pick up in/on it, how would you go about that?

This is an interesting link to McCarthy Guitars and how he handles it. (also a great sales pitch if you want a $7000 archtop )

http://www.mccarthystringedinstrumen...38/page38.html

He says he gets the best sound from free floating magnetic PUs. I would have thought a Piezo would be the way to go. Or perhaps a combination of Piezo & magnetic.

I had this idea - feel free to comment



The idea here is to have a block under the PU, but only connected to the top & back where the neck block would normally go. Kind of free floated in the body. The PU is attached to the block. The top would be cut out for the PU so the top plate would be free to vibrate. A piezo cable would be installed under the saddle. A preamp (possibly with notch filter) would be installed.

I have read some about what causes feedback in an acoustic. It happens when you create a loop between the mic, amp & speaker. Acoustic guitars will collect ambient sound in the body and then regurgitate it back to the PU. Or something like that.

The goal is to get the best, most authentic acoustic sound out of the guitar. I have plenty of electric guitars. If this was just for me, I wouldn't bother with the PU at all. I don't play in public. BUT - I always try to imagine professionals using my guitars & what they would need.

Any thoughts?

__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 03:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kelowna B.C, Canada
Age: 17
Posts: 4,065
Well not really sure about what you're saying.. kinda confusing, i'm sure I could figure it out, but then I'd still have no input. All I can say is that I've put electric pickups into two acoustics and they both have a very different sound then an electric, obviously. I mounted then on the sound holes with screws, and one with just masking (idiot) tape. a little different then what you have posted. Are you worried about the pickup getting feedback from the guitar? That's not really a problem for me.. I don't think.. I'll try and find pics or take some for yeah.
__________________
"Johnny says he's bound
By only six strings to this world"
Bentley is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kelowna B.C, Canada
Age: 17
Posts: 4,065
Here. Hope this helps.. I don't think this is what you're getting at, but it works well for me.. I'll go try and see if I get any of this "feedback" as I don't remember.
__________________
"Johnny says he's bound
By only six strings to this world"
Bentley is offline   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links   #
Sponsored posting
 

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #4 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Some of the stuff I read talked about having more problems in small rooms. There is a feedback suppressor you can buy. It's just a cover for the sound hole. Keeps the guitar from collecting the room noise and projecting it to the mic. Obviously, that would not apply to F-holes.

A piezo has a greater tonal range making it better for realistic acoustic sound reproduction. Or so I've heard. Also, supposed to go through an acoustic amp. That's another thing I'd like to find out about. I've heard the best acoustic amps are PA systems. I have several Ovations, but I never plug them in so I don't know. I'd like to get a good PA system, but I sure as hell don't sing!
__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
Tele-Afflicted
 
clsatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: virginia
Age: 29
Posts: 1,287
I follow you. I almost think that might be counter productive though. You have the strings moving one way the guitar another and this would be adding a third that is affected by both. Maybe if it was mounted the way you have it shown but on a foam block instead of wood. That might isolate it from the instrument enough to fight that feedback.


.... But I have proof of nothing.
clsatt is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kelowna B.C, Canada
Age: 17
Posts: 4,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosmo View Post
Some of the stuff I read talked about having more problems in small rooms. There is a feedback suppressor you can buy. It's just a cover for the sound hole. Keeps the guitar from collecting the room noise and projecting it to the mic. Obviously, that would not apply to F-holes.
I just went and played for a bit... I used the neck pickup of a pair of cheap e-bay pups on the acoustic, and it's brother is on a plywood strat, in the bridge. The strat sounds quite nasally, like most bridge pups I have experienced... The acoustic tonalities on the strat are the same as any other solid body.. The acoustic guitar however sounds extra.. acousticy! The pickup doesn't do a GREAT job of picking up the sound, but it does definitely sound more like an acoustic, I guess the electric pup will work alright for that application, but piezo would most likely give the more "true" sound.

As for the feedback, you are spot on. My "music room" is my walk-in closet, so obviously it's pretty small. The acoustic does feedback. It took a little while, like longer then anyone should ever pause, to start getting louder. Once it got there though it just kept amplifying it and getting louder and louder. You could let it sit and it would keep making noise. So yes, it does get feedback, quite loud feedback, after a while. I highly doubt the placement of the pickup would combat this, as the acoustic guitar would be vibrating the strings, then the pup picks that up, so I highly doubt the pup has anything to do with the feedback. I'm kinda rambling and not making much sense, I'm just typing whatever is going through my mind.

Hope this helps! BTW the electric didn't feedback at all, and it somehow has a grounding problem, I just discovered.
__________________
"Johnny says he's bound
By only six strings to this world"
Bentley is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
Bentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kelowna B.C, Canada
Age: 17
Posts: 4,065
Also, I don't think the soundhole cover will make a large difference, because the pickup basically cover the soundhole. the vibrations make my wall rattle, so it's definitely going to make the wood vibrate as well.
__________________
"Johnny says he's bound
By only six strings to this world"
Bentley is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by clsatt View Post
I follow you. I almost think that might be counter productive though. You have the strings moving one way the guitar another and this would be adding a third that is affected by both. Maybe if it was mounted the way you have it shown but on a foam block instead of wood. That might isolate it from the instrument enough to fight that feedback.


.... But I have proof of nothing.
Yeah, I thought about foam. Just forgot to put it in my awesome drawing

I have a feeling you're right about that being counter-productive. If I ever do something like this I'll just use a piezo. Cleaner installation anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
...

Hope this helps! BTW the electric didn't feedback at all, and it somehow has a grounding problem, I just discovered.
Everything helps. I listen to it all and throw out whatever I don't like. You never know where the next idea will come from.
__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
kwerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,632
I had an amp (Australian designed - I point this out because it's unlikely you'd get the same amp where you are) til recently that was effectively a small PA. It had differently balanced inputs for all manner of devices, including XLR inputs for acoustic and microphones. As I understand it, though I've never tried what Bentley has tried there, putting a magnetic pickup into an acoustic will likely cause feedback due to the much greater top vibration, and the amplified sound entering the soundwell, and, um, feeding it back out into the PA via mics. That at least is how I assume the problem occurs.

Over the years I've also owned a couple of late sixties Yamaha Super Axes. They were both SA-50's, a true hollow body take on the semi hollow 335. They got around the feedback issue by mounting rectangular plastic boxes under the F-holes. Gave the appearance of the classic 335 style F-hole (actually the Yamaha ones are a much prettier design IMHO) but the hole was effectively sealed off by the box mounted underneath. It's a permanent version of the feedback suppressor you described above.

You can sort of see it here:






As far as ideal amplification, or rather ideal pickup options, I believe Fishman puts out a system that is a balanceable combination of undersaddle piezo, transducer mic and magnetic. I think it's Fishman, but I could be wrong. Seems like it would cover all bases though.
__________________
Phil

I'm full of dust and guitars - Syd Barrett
kwerk is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Kwerk - I think you got the feedback reasoning down pretty well. I've heard that some acoustic amps have notch filters to screen out the frequencies that cause the feedback. Sounds like that was a nice amp you had.

That's a nice looking guitar. Seems to me if you block off the F-holes you fix the feedback problem, but then why build an acoustic? I'm sure it's light and maybe that's the point, but it's still an electric. (Always wondered why thinlines had F-holes)

Been looking at Fishman and a couple others. Probably the way to go.

I'm so confused
__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
Poster Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago 'Burbs
Age: 59
Posts: 6,923
OK.. I've messed with this stuff since I was about 9 or 10 yers old.. A piezo is gonna suck. My honest opinion. They compress and quack like a duck. The quickest way to make a $5,000.00 guitar sound like a $100.00 guitar is to plug it in.

That said, I modified a Bartolini pickup to float above the body on a fully hollow Tele shape guitar, which works very well. It is mounted to a bracket which is screwed to the neck. I have a '55 Gibson ES-125 with a single P-90 in it (all original), and it sounds great- but 1955 P-90's are way different from modern P-90's. The Feedback busters do work to an extent, mine is used as a coaster on the coffee table, so I don't mar the finish. Best use for it IMO. Take a good, close look at these if you want to get some really good ideas for archtops- enter at your own risk

I'll stop typing now- this is a very deep rabbit hole, Nosmo. ;) Good luck!
__________________
When I grow up, I'm gonna be just like me.
Rich Rice is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 05:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Rice View Post
...
I'll stop typing now- this is a very deep rabbit hole, Nosmo. ;) Good luck!
Thanks Rich - Don't panic, I'm just thinking out loud I've got too many projects going right now anyway.
__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
kwerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,632
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosmo View Post
Kwerk - I think you got the feedback reasoning down pretty well. I've heard that some acoustic amps have notch filters to screen out the frequencies that cause the feedback. Sounds like that was a nice amp you had.

That's a nice looking guitar. Seems to me if you block off the F-holes you fix the feedback problem, but then why build an acoustic? I'm sure it's light and maybe that's the point, but it's still an electric. (Always wondered why thinlines had F-holes)

Been looking at Fishman and a couple others. Probably the way to go.

I'm so confused
I think you build an acoustic because you want an acoustic guitar. The method of producing sound remains the same, soundbox, braced top, etc. You put the suppressor and pickup in because you want to change the end use. The advantage is you can remove the suppressor and use it the way it's intended tto be used if need be. Piezo pickups or combination systems still rely on the construction properties of a traditionally constructed acoustic guitar.

The amp was a pretty cheap Chinese one (Australian designed according to the publicity), but I've only ever been a garage jam player, and it meant I could set up a mic and the guitar if need be, there was sufficient inputs and capacity that the keyboard player could plug in to the balanced keyboard input as well. The biggest bonus for me was that I could plug in my Variax, with the electric output to the standard active input on the amp, and the acoustic output into the XLR in. Meant that I could use the Variax to it's fullest potential using a single, very portable amp. I gave it to a good friend who had had to reluctantly sell his Fender Twin to pay bills.
__________________
Phil

I'm full of dust and guitars - Syd Barrett
kwerk is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #14 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
kwerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 4,632
The pickup system I was thinking of is a Dean Markley one - I just remembered. Can't find any info on the triple system though - maybe it's been discontinued. Markley do however offer a large range of acoustic pickup options, they're probably worth further consideration.
__________________
Phil

I'm full of dust and guitars - Syd Barrett
kwerk is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 05:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
nosmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Jackson, TX
Posts: 3,489
Thanks for all the info. It seems the experts agree piezos aren't the best for acoustics. Learn something new every day. (Of course then I promptly forget it)

Rich - That link has some beautiful works of art. Amazing stuff. Maybe I should just stick to Teles
__________________
Telecaster - The AK-47 of the guitar world. Some may think its ugly...but it works!
nosmo is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 06:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
Poster Extraordinaire
 
crazydave911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Age: 55
Posts: 7,496
Wow, do you have any idea what a can of worms you just opened? . FWIW, an acoustic amp is simply more high-fi (the ones I've played) than a standard amp. I think acoustically you'll find a Schatten pickup will work well. On an arch-top (a whole different animal than a flat-top) those neck mounted pups work fine................at least for jazz and motown . Carry on friend (nobody ever said Texans were timid )
__________________
"No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

My Facebook
crazydave911 is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 07:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
Tele-Holic
 
I_build_my_own's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 953
Nothing exceeds first hand experience - a $4 piezo UST will likely not produce the results of a Taylor expression system, and will also sound different than mix of a Baggs Anthem mic + UST + mag pup and will sound different than an iBeam solution. Just try out what you come across. You can alway replace a UST with a regular saddle, or leave alone (not hooked up) some K&K or JJB soundboard transducers (piezos). Regarding the latter, either people seem to like the the K&K and JJBs or they just leave them mounted in their guitars if they don't like them. I have not seen much (any) used ones on ebay - but I am not on ebay every day...
I_build_my_own is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
Poster Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Chicago 'Burbs
Age: 59
Posts: 6,923
Build ya a top notch archtop, and buy a great microphone- there. I finally said it.. ;)

I put an I-Beam system into a hand build D-28 that I built from a Stewmac kit, and the guy liked it so much he gave us a $600.00 tip when he picked it up- can't be that bad.. ;)
__________________
When I grow up, I'm gonna be just like me.
Rich Rice is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
Tele-Holic
 
I_build_my_own's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 953
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Rice View Post
Build ya a top notch archtop, and buy a great microphone- there. I finally said it.. ;)

I put an I-Beam system into a hand build D-28 that I built from a Stewmac kit, and the guy liked it so much he gave us a $600.00 tip when he picked it up- can't be that bad.. ;)
a $600 tip wow!!! my biggest commercial success was getting invited for a pizza as a thank you.
I_build_my_own is offline   Reply With Quote

Old March 15th, 2013, 07:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
Friend of Leo's
 
Engraver-60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Franklin, TN
Age: 62
Posts: 2,836
A fellow I worked with bought an artist edition President by Hofner, and it had F-hole covers made of F-shaped foam with ebony covers. They effectively blocked out the potential for feedback and really looked like the F-holes.
__________________
Maker of fine kindling and metal chips.
Franklin, TN
Engraver-60 is online now   Reply With Quote

Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump


» Random Photo for Guests
Assembly Pics 5 - Glued Up - Angled View(Tail End)
Untitled Document



 


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2



IMPORTANT:Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult! No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 RC 2
© TDPRI.COM 1999 - 2014 All rights reserved.