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Old March 13th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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ES-339 diagram doubt

Hi. I have a Classic57 neck (2 wires) and a PAF 36th DiMarzio bridge (5 wires). THE guitar is a 339 Epiphone. I'll use 4 500K CTS pots, 2 vol and 2 tones, and 1 selector 3 pos like LP.
Who can help me?! Diagrams etc Because there is a noise like ground...
THANKS !!

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Old March 13th, 2013, 05:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Seymour Duncan can help




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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I really like the pickups in the epi 339, and i am quite fussy, Why are you swapping them out ?
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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I used the SD diagram...and the ground noise continous
:-(
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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi Guys.

Genesio is a friend of mine, even though we live in cities far apart, and let me help him with your questions and try to explain the kind of problems he's facing now just because I have a better command of the English language than him.

Actually Genesio has been working as a guitar tech for some time and fortunately he has already gathered some good experience, but this is the first time that he is swapping pickups in a semi accoustic guitar.

This guitar belongs to a guy who happens to also be a friend of us and the decision of swapping the pickups came directly from his ears and tone expectations.

Making a long story short, the Epiphone ES-339 had pickups and a switching scheme with push pull pots to split the humbuckers and the owner decided to get rid of the splitting system as well as make an upgrade with CTS pots as well as using a DiMarzio pup for the bridge and a Gibbo Classic 57 for the neck. Genesio swapped the pickups and pots and connected the whole circuit in full accordance to the schematics provided on the Seymour Duncan website. However, after doing it the guitar is now showing a grounding related noise that whenever you touch the strings, it makes the noise go away.

Taking into account that the circuit was exactly done as the SD suggested schematic and probing with a multimeter, the whole grounding system is interconnected and there is no open circuit from the grounding wire coming from the bridge, wherelse should he begin to check? After touching the strings the noise goes away and the guitar now has a killer tone from both pickups.

Please if anyone here can enlighten him with this problem, we shall all be extremely grateful.

Cheers to you all and to this magnificent forum where we had been able to collect a lot of invaluable information.

Juarez
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Old March 13th, 2013, 07:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Sounds to me as if the hots and the grounds are reversed. The noise should go away when touching the strings. Wired right, but with the hots and the grounds switched..
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Old March 13th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Rice View Post
Sounds to me as if the hots and the grounds are reversed. The noise should go away when touching the strings. Wired right, but with the hots and the grounds switched..
Most commonly caused by the jack leads getting switched by accident
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Old March 14th, 2013, 12:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I certainly hope that he paid attention to the fact that he is using a Dimario pickup which has a different color code than Seymour Duncan.
Dimarzio: Red is hot. Black and white together. Green and bare are ground
SD: black is hot. Red and white together. Green and bare are ground.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 05:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beyondhappy View Post
I certainly hope that he paid attention to the fact that he is using a Dimario pickup which has a different color code than Seymour Duncan.
Dimarzio: Red is hot. Black and white together. Green and bare are ground
SD: black is hot. Red and white together. Green and bare are ground.
Yes, i known that...
Thanks! ;-)
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Old March 14th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Rice View Post
Sounds to me as if the hots and the grounds are reversed. The noise should go away when touching the strings. Wired right, but with the hots and the grounds switched..
First, thanks Rich Rice! But are the reversed wires of the pups?! Of the 2 pups?! Or only one?!

I tried to change the hots and the grounds (of the one pup at a time, and after the 2 pups at the same time) and the noise didn't stop. :-(

Thanks!
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Old March 14th, 2013, 07:31 AM   #12 (permalink)
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IMHO to reverse the Gibbo Classic 57's wires is fully unlikely. The hot is the only available wire and the ground is directly connected to the output wire's shielding mesh.

However, I would suggest Genesio to check and even to swap the DiMarzio's wires, keeping the Gibbo's wires untouched and tell us what happens
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Old March 14th, 2013, 08:14 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongpersuader View Post
IMHO to reverse the Gibbo Classic 57's wires is fully unlikely. The hot is the only available wire and the ground is directly connected to the output wire's shielding mesh.

However, I would suggest Genesio to check and even to swap the DiMarzio's wires, keeping the Gibbo's wires untouched and tell us what happens
I'll try this my friend Juarez!
Thanks again!
Cheers!
Genesio
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Old March 15th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I think the first thing to check is whether the output jack wires are reversed but that usually causes a loud noise when you touch the strings, not the other way around.

It also occurred to me that the string ground on an Epi is done a little differently than on a Gibson. For what it's worth, the string-ground wire on a Gibson semihollowbody is a bare piece of 22 gauge bare wire that comes off one of the tailpiece studs and is simply wrapped around the bare braided shield of the bridge pickup lead with a drop of solder to hold it. Since Epi uses insulated cable on their pickups, that string-ground wire is connected to somewhere else, like a pot shell. Sounds like you have that taken care of, though.

Oh, and as for swapping out the pickups, Durberville, you might have just gotten lucky - the Epi pickups are kind of notorious for being inconsistently made so one set might sound as good as a set of Gibson pickups, and one might not. I like the ones on my Joe Pass but didn't like the ones that came in my Dot. A friend has a few Epi Sheraton IIs and the bridge pickup on one sounds great, but the other one is weak.

So, once you're in there rewiring an Epi, you really need to get the cheap insulated wire out of there and put in more legitimate shielded cabling, and at least a solidly made jack (look for a long shaft Switchcraft so it has plenty of room to fit through the thick plywood rim of the guitar). They upgraded the hardware they're using for toggle switches so you have a choice whether to replace the switch.
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Old March 15th, 2013, 03:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Oh, just a thought. If you're trying to get this Epi 339 to be wired like a Gibson 339, keep in mind that the Gibson ES339 has what they call the "Memphis Tone" circuit - big marketing term for audio taper volume pots (instead of 300K linear pots which Gibson is fond of using in some production models) and the "50's wiring mod." The "50's" mod is simple - just change where the tone control is connected. Instead of coming off of the outer lug of the voume pot (the same lug where the pickup is connected), you use the middle lug of the volume pot (the same lug where the wire runs to the toggle switch). The 50's mod, if you're not familiar with it, is meant to keep the tone bright and avoid a loss of treble when you roll back the volume control (which is important if you have an amp with a lot of distortion). The tradeoff with this mod is that the tone control now starts to drop the volume a little bit. Anyway, it's how Gibson is wiring the ES339, so if your friend wants the Epi to be wired like a stock Gibby, that's the way to go.

The 50's mod for a Gibson wiring harness is basically the same thing as a Fez-Parka mod for a Tele or Strat wiring harness. Capice?
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Old March 15th, 2013, 04:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
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When you get a problem like this on a semi the only thing you can really do is haul all the pots and switches back out and start over. Check it out where you can see it.

It is like reassembling a ship in a bottle. You need good strong solder connections, cable ties may be advisable. Wires can be pulled off or shorted when assembling these things. Try to use as little cable wiring as possible whilst still being able to reassemble. Long hook made from wire coat hanger and some strong thread with slipknot.

Forgive me for stating the obvious "how to suck eggs" - without pictures ...
These pickups use a shielded cable and the outer sleeve is the ground. The ground goes to - the pickup bodies, the pot cans, the switch body, the bridge or tail stop (strings), the jack sleeve. Everything metal gets grounded, must be grounded (earthed).

Humbuckers have two coils and hence actually 4 wires although the connection between the coils may be hidden. Each humbucker normally has its coils connected in series. They can also be connected in parallel and out-of-phase either way but out-of-phase here is not hum-cancelling and is a fault (not humbucking).

Each humbucker has two magnet poles, a north and a south. A pair of humbuckers usually has pickups of identical construction (magnets and wiring the same way round). This may help you to determine whether the pickups are assembled out of phase. If they are out of phase, simply reverse hot and cold at the pickup or the vol pot (see below), the sleeve ground remains the ground. Do not connect cold to outer sleeve at the pickup (less noise (no hum loop) and easier to swap about later).

Les Paul (ES335 and most other Gibson/Epi twin HB) wiring is from pickup to tone control to volume to switch to jack.
The volume control hot connection is to the top of the pot and the wiper output to the selector switch. The tone control is also connected to the top of the vol pot.
The bottom of the vol pot takes the cold connection, you can ground the cold wires here, or later with a single "star earth", the cold wires must of course all connect up to the jack socket sleeve.
If you put the tone control after the vol, connected to the vol pot wiper (50s wiring), then you turn the vol pot into a tone control.
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Last edited by jefrs; March 15th, 2013 at 04:25 PM. Reason: munged tpying
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Old March 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Did the bridge ground get re-connected??
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Old March 16th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Let me pop in to thank you all and answer some of the questions on behalf of Genesio.

When he tried all the available and suggestd options he indeed reconnected the bridge ground wire, but he also wants to thank and acknowledge Jefrs' and Vizcatser's suggestions.

Right now he has decided to haul all the pots and to switch back out and start everything over again. In order to achieve the expected results he will use shielded cables and he is also going to swap the stock jack for a long shaft Swichcraft one.

Thank you all once again and rest assured that as soon as he gets the job done he will post the results here.

Juarez
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Old March 16th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Ok after he's done it a few times we'll share the trick of using thin tubing from the pet store (it's used for aquarium filters) to snake the pots back into their positions. Just stick the tubing over half of the split shaft, it works better than dental floss for guiding the pots back into the holes.

Also, Epi is changing manufacture from China to Indonesia (Samick) for some models, so if you're lucky there might be a notch in the center block so you can snake the parts out through the bridge pickup rout instead of scratching the sides of the f-hole. All I know is the China ES-335 (Dot) bodies don't have the notch.
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Old March 16th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Thanks once agaiin for this tip on the Epi's bodies. He will surely take your advice into account

Regarding the tubing to get the pots back in position, we have discussed this approach as it has been shown in one of the Stew Mac's videos and tips. Anyways thank you once again for reminding us.
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