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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Gibson Must Have Sent a Cease-And-Desist to Warmoth...

If you click any Gibson body shapes on Warmoth's Body Builder, you now see:

Quote:
SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE

In response to Gibson’s legal demands over potential trademark issues, Warmoth is no longer building new product for this precise body shape. However, there may be existing product available from our In Stock Showcase that will satisfy your needs – until they are all gone. New body styles will be available in the coming months. We apologize for any inconvenience this might cause.
I thought the Gibson and Fender had lost the body-shape war... but won the headstock-shape war... or was that just Fender?

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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:37 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Hmm, I can see their point; but it's not gonna make anyone who was set on building their own guitar go out and buy a Gibson. Why don't they just license them?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 05:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Can you guys see this page with LP bodies for sale?

http://www.warmoth.com/Pages/Classic...P,Carved%20Top

Wait - I get it now. Just the bodybuilder bit.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 09:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It comes down to who has more lawyer clout. If IBM were to sue me over one of my patents, guess what? I don't have the funds to fight it, even though I'd be on solid ground. I'm sure that's what happened here. Carroll Shelby sued both Factory Five Racing and Superformance over the shape of the Shelby Cobra body. Superformance didn't want to fund an expensive fight and gave in to licensing. Factory Five fought and won handily, but at great legal cost (their lawyers were $350 per hour....I know the owners).
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimdkc View Post
If you click any Gibson body shapes on Warmoth's Body Builder, you now see:



I thought the Gibson and Fender had lost the body-shape war... but won the headstock-shape war... or was that just Fender?
Trying to attain Rickenbacker type attitude aren't they (Gibson that is)?
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Old January 7th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Its not just their LP bodies either, they have it for their SG bodies too. You'd think Gibson would back off since these bodies are using Fender style neck pockets and made to 25.5" scale.

And if Gibson were serious about protecting their shapes, there are companies making exponentially more LP and SG copies than Warmoth, and with exponentially deeper pockets too.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
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And if Gibson were serious about protecting their shapes, there are companies making exponentially more LP and SG copies than Warmoth, and with exponentially deeper pockets too.
And there ya' have it...........the typical bully picking on the wimpy kid (sorry Warmoth). You'd think Gibson had enough legal issues without picking on somebody else . I really wish some of those "deep pockets" would challenge this and run that Gibby prez out of town. I wasn't kidding in my other comment, this cat is getting a little too "John Hall" in his attitude. One of those in this world is too many
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:34 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Its not just their LP bodies either, they have it for their SG bodies too. You'd think Gibson would back off since these bodies are using Fender style neck pockets and made to 25.5" scale.

And if Gibson were serious about protecting their shapes, there are companies making exponentially more LP and SG copies than Warmoth, and with exponentially deeper pockets too.
They lost their case with PRS. It is all about who can afford to argue the fact that Gibson lost the right to protect a trademark shape when they allowed it to be copied by everyone under the sun over 50 the past years. You cant put that genie back in the bottle when it comes to those body designes. But, if your Gibson you would want to keep trying to get every LP clone body off the market even if you can't win every battle to do so. It is worth the expense of trying. One day they may just win one of those cases for the body and have precident for more.

You either protect your trademark from day 1 or lose it as a trademark. Fender and Gibson did figure that out soon enough to protect their headstock designs. Though Leo clearly ripped off Bigsby in the first place. He is the one who protected the trademark shape. Try to sell a strat or tele headstock and see how fast you make friends with Fender's legal team.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #9 (permalink)
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But, if your Gibson you would want to keep trying to get every LP clone body off the market even if you can't win every battle to do so. It is worth the expense of trying. One day they may just win one of those cases for the body and have precedent for more.
You nailed it, they're looking for precedent. I'd hate to see Warmoth being the one
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Old January 7th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah this happened a month or two back. If you search on the SD forums it has been discussed rather lengthily. I'm not gonna get into who's right or wrong because that's a can of worms but it does suck either way. Just one more reason to do more scratch builds. It'll take Gibson a long time to work their way down to pipsqueeks like me.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I would think that their non-enforcement of trademarks on body shapes has been one of the biggest contributors to their success though. I mean the Tele, Strat, SG, 335, and LP are pretty much the definitive guitar shapes. Most players start out on a clone, and then they go to the genuine article.

I mean maybe Gibson is trying to close up the low end market so the only Gibson-shapes will be Epiphones or licensed models, but it seems thats cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Eventually Gibson is going get to a "New Coke" level of crazy.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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but it seems thats cutting off their nose to spite their face
Like the "X" and Zootsuit haven't already done that?

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Eventually Gibson is going get to a "New Coke" level of crazy.
I respectfully suggest they're there already
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Old January 7th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You'd think gibson would be more upset over something like the chibson video on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfhzGYoXlUc

the headstock even says gibson.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If gibson wouldnt charge $3000 for a $600 guitar more people would buy from them to start with. I think fender is catching on to that.

"If you want rules, read the IRS tax code. If you want to build guitars, make some sawdust." -Colt W. Knight
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Old January 7th, 2013, 02:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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If gibson wouldnt charge $3000 for a $600 guitar more people would buy from them to start with. I think fender is catching on to that.

"If you want rules, read the IRS tax code. If you want to build guitars, make some sawdust." -Colt W. Knight
I challenge anyone to build a LP for 600.00. There's a lot more involved in building a Les Paul vs a tele or Strat.

3K for a Les Paul? No way. You can get a real nice LP for less than 1'200.
http://www.long-mcquade.com/products..._-_Goldtop.htm
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I challenge anyone to build a LP for 600.00. There's a lot more involved in building a Les Paul vs a tele or Strat.
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I'm not picking a fight, but plenty of folks on here could build an LP clone for under $600. There's nothing incredibly difficult about them if you've got some woodworking chops and have arched a top before.

I think Gibson's sick of everyone talking about CITES, and is trying to change the subject. And I'm with Crazydave; Gibbo lost it completely when they put out that zootsuit abomination. Everything else has just been circling the drain. JMO.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I think Gibson's sick of everyone talking about CITES, and is trying to change the subject. And I'm with Crazydave; Gibbo lost it completely when they put out that zootsuit abomination. Everything else has just been circling the drain. JMO.
LOL, yeh, it's not like you see them protecting L6s, Marauders, and Sonexes
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I challenge anyone to build a LP for 600.00. There's a lot more involved in building a Les Paul vs a tele or Strat.
Not really. Glue-in necks are so easy to do that Rondo can sell one for $139. To do a proper Paul, AAA grade top and decent mahogany, materials will run me about $300 or so. The main difference, if you will, is binding, and binding is demanding but not difficult or expensive.

The main difference between me building a Les Paul and Gibson building one, besides me acquiring my rosewood legally, is that Gibson will have a much easier time of it; I don't have a CNC machine to do all my cuts and the top arch. Back when you had to do all that by hand there was a real reason for some of the price differential, but that reason hasn't existed since the 1990s.

Yet another company that can't compete on the merits trying to keep market share via litigation.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 03:57 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm not picking a fight, but plenty of folks on here could build an LP clone for under $600. There's nothing incredibly difficult about them if you've got some woodworking chops and have arched a top before.

I think Gibson's sick of everyone talking about CITES, and is trying to change the subject. And I'm with Crazydave; Gibbo lost it completely when they put out that zootsuit abomination. Everything else has just been circling the drain. JMO.
Here's a rough ballpark:

Wood - Mahogany + maple cap + neck wood + fretboard material = at least $100.00 for nice pieces. I'm lowballing here because I know that some of you can get wood for cheap.

Tuners = Cheapest Gotohs are $30.00
Bridge + Tailpiece = $50.00
Decent Pickups = $150.00
Decent Controls and Electonics = $25.00
Misc Hardware = $25.00
Misc Sandpaper and supplies like glue = $25.00
Tusq Nut = $10.00
Finishing + Buffing + coloring + tinting + Cleanup Materials = $50.00
Inlay Materials = $40.00
Binding = $10.00
Frets = $10.00

I'm already over $500.00

That's assuming you already have all the tools and you don't include the wear and tear on blades, router bits and whatnot.

Then, you include your time for free but Gibson can't do that because they're a business.


A Les Paul is more work because of:
1- Mahogany body + separate top
2- Routing is more intricate
3- Headstock Angle
4- Neck and body binding
5- Carved top
6- Neck angle
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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:31 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm doing an LP build now. I'm about 2/3 of the way finished with the neck. and haven't even made the body templates yet. Been working on it about 2 weeks. If I were building a Tele, I'd be spraying lacquer by now. If I were really serious about getting paid for my time, I'd be way over the price I quoted the customer.
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