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November 18th, 2011, 07:41 PM   #181 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by flatfive I worked out the error you'd accumulate if you measured from fret to fret. Roughly: If, on average, 30% of the time your measurement error is .01" or more, then 30% of the time your 22nd fret location will be off by .05" or more. (.01" is about a quarter of a mm) Feeling lucky, punk? Actually, that's not too bad. But the calculation assumes that you're as likely to err on one side as the other. So errors often cancel out. In real life I think we often err more on one side than another. The little bit of data I got suggests that it might be possible to mark a fret position to less than .01" error 70% of the time. If you want to use a number other than .01", just multiply it by 4.7 to get the second number (I rounded .047" to .05"). ---- math stuff follows ---- This was derived by assuming errors are independent and normally distributed. Assume the normal distribution for each measurement has mean 0 and a standard deviation of x. Then summing 22 independent random variables over this distribution, you get a random variable with mean 0 and a variance of 22 x^2, or a standard deviation of 22^(1/2) x, which is about 4.7 x. The 30% appears because samples from a normal distribution lie outside one standard distribution about 32% of the time. I think I did that right...

Holy mackerel, Glenn!!

I gotta sit with Nick on this.

Ever since I saw one of these:

I feel a lot easier about marking with a mechanical pencil off a combo of calipers and steel rules. If accurate fretting means a different fret position on each string, there's no amount of accuracy that can get me perfect position from straight frets.

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November 18th, 2011, 07:55 PM   #182 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by flatfive
Does your router have a guide?

I use it to route trussrod slots in angled headstock necks.
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November 18th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #183 (permalink)
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Hey there kwerk!

That is a cool neck, but you've got to ask yourself,
is it worth suffering vertigo to play in tune?

I figured there were a bunch of statistics experts
around here who were going to straighten me out on
my little endeavor, but I guess they don't get their
kicks from guitar making.

I think a combo of calipers and steel rules sounds a
pretty sound approach.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by kwerk Holy mackerel, Glenn!! I gotta sit with Nick on this. Ever since I saw one of these: I feel a lot easier about marking with a mechanical pencil off a combo of calipers and steel rules. If accurate fretting means a different fret position on each string, there's no amount of accuracy that can get me perfect position from straight frets.

November 18th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #184 (permalink)
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I don't have a guide for my router. It's a PC 690, so they
must be available. Perhaps I'll learn the value of router
guides soon, just as I learned the value of fences this year.
So thanks for pointing that out.

On the other hand, I already have my jig and it does make
routing the slot totally foolproof.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Nick JD Does your router have a guide? ... I use it to route trussrod slots in angled headstock necks.

Last edited by flatfive; November 19th, 2011 at 12:05 AM.

 November 19th, 2011, 11:56 PM #185 (permalink) Friend of Leo's   Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 3,540 We've got a man-vs-nature scenario here, where I'm trying to keep working (on the front porch) as the weather gets nastier and nastier. To try to protect the wood from temperature changes, I'm getting stuff ready, taking the wood outside, and then rushing it back in after it's been operated on. Anyway, after getting the truss rod jig sorted out yesterday, it turned out not to be suitable. The problem was that the neck isn't uniformly thick, so the truss rod slot was sloped at the bottom. I ended up using the router table with a fence. I marked the back of the neck and the fence so I'd know the location of the slot end. After slotting: Then screwed the neck template on and routed the sides. Did the same thing with the headstock template: You can see a little rough spot at the side of the neck where the headstock and neck routs met. I'll clean this up after shaping the back of the neck. With care and a sharp router bit the end grain at the top of the headstock was smooth. (It might look like a little tear occurred but that's just a reflection.) Things are going okay. Not sure what to do next -- either figure out and make the body routs, or do the drilling of the truss rod access hole. Last edited by flatfive; November 20th, 2011 at 09:23 AM.
November 20th, 2011, 05:02 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by flatfive ... Very roughly: the error grows as the square root of the number of measurements. ...
Depends on the Beer involved

 November 20th, 2011, 06:36 AM #187 (permalink) Poster Extraordinaire     Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 59 Posts: 7,609 My filler strips tend to be thin near the nut too. __________________ Lifetime Member IGPA
November 20th, 2011, 09:26 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mojotron Depends on the Beer involved
Hi Mojo. You thinking of that related statistics problem,
the random walk?

November 20th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #189 (permalink)
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Thanks for mentioning this. I'm still trying to figure out
how to work the area around the nut and access hole.

In some builds I've seen a fillet about 2" long installed around
the nut area, and then a hole drilled from the headstock

Why not instead drill the hole first and then install a single
fillet strip along the length of the truss rod slot? Is it
so the access hole will be neatly round all around the

Quote:
 Originally Posted by guitarbuilder My filler strips tend to be thin near the nut too.

November 20th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by flatfive Hi Mojo. You thinking of that related statistics problem, the random walk?
Yes - sorry it was Saturday night and brewsky was on my mind

I like the thoughts on successive approximation - it's worth putting a lot of thought into - anyway laying out measurements is done it's always been my experience that one can never be careful enough if one wants to play extended chords above the 12th fret to have that 'ring' that really well made guitars seem to have.

I'm learning from this thread and taking notes...

 November 20th, 2011, 05:11 PM #191 (permalink) Poster Extraordinaire     Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 59 Posts: 7,609 If you look at the typical gibson neck, there is about 3/16-1/4" of neck wood/filler strip behind the nut before the cavity flat end starts ( where the washer sits). This allows the small rod nut cover screw someplace to go. I've done the cavity a few different ways, using a roundnose bit right after cutting the truss rod slot while the neck is centered on the fence. I've done it by hand after everything is glued on with a chisel and xacto knife. I even made a boring jig for my hand drill where a forstner bit mounted in my portable drill ran on a slot into the peghead. None was better than the other really. I've recently just did a couple necks where I took a 1/2 D forstner bit and drilled down some in front of the rod. Then I took a chisel and made a V shaped cavity up to the end. Then I have this curved carving tool from xacto that is really sharp, and I just clean everything up. A sharp utility style knife cuts the fibers down by the washer. Probably the best thing for me now, would be to use the jig I made to drill tele 3 degree adj. rod holes, which I made after the gibson necks were done. For that jig, I have a 3 degree wedge that I can remove so I can try gibson adj rod cavities. Regarding the thin filler strip... that means you have more wood under the nut which is a good thing for a gibson style neck :-). __________________ Lifetime Member IGPA
November 20th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Hi Mojo. Yeah, the thing that I still don't have a feeling for
is: how much do small differences in fret placement make in
the sound and feeling of a guitar?

One thing I realized is that some guitars continue to sound
good after significant fret wear, and fret wear can change
the effective fret location by ... what, maybe about 1/2
of the fret width, or about .04".

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mojotron ... I like the thoughts on successive approximation - it's worth putting a lot of thought into - anyway laying out measurements is done it's always been my experience that one can never be careful enough if one wants to play extended chords above the 12th fret to have that 'ring' that really well made guitars seem to have.
Hope you're learning more than I'm a greenhorn.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Mojotron ...I'm learning from this thread and taking notes...

November 20th, 2011, 10:02 PM   #193 (permalink)
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this. Do you have
any build threads here or elsewhere showing some of these
steps? Maybe I should spend more time looking at threads
on Luthier's Corner on mylespaul.com.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by guitarbuilder If you look at the typical gibson neck, there is about 3/16-1/4" of neck wood/filler strip behind the nut before the cavity flat end starts ( where the washer sits). This allows the small rod nut cover screw someplace to go. I've done the cavity a few different ways, using a roundnose bit right after cutting the truss rod slot while the neck is centered on the fence. I've done it by hand after everything is glued on with a chisel and xacto knife. I even made a boring jig for my hand drill where a forstner bit mounted in my portable drill ran on a slot into the peghead. None was better than the other really. I've recently just did a couple necks where I took a 1/2 D forstner bit and drilled down some in front of the rod. Then I took a chisel and made a V shaped cavity up to the end. Then I have this curved carving tool from xacto that is really sharp, and I just clean everything up. A sharp utility style knife cuts the fibers down by the washer. Probably the best thing for me now, would be to use the jig I made to drill tele 3 degree adj. rod holes, which I made after the gibson necks were done. For that jig, I have a 3 degree wedge that I can remove so I can try gibson adj rod cavities. Regarding the thin filler strip... that means you have more wood under the nut which is a good thing for a gibson style neck :-).

November 21st, 2011, 03:22 AM   #195 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by flatfive I made some progress today but also made a blunder. First I shaped the notch on the top of the headstock. For that I used a small triangular file, a small piece of MDF with some sandpaper glued on one surface, and other little bits of sandpaper.

Beautiful job, Glenn. That's some precision work.
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I'm full of dust and guitars - Syd Barrett

 November 21st, 2011, 06:47 AM #196 (permalink) Poster Extraordinaire     Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 59 Posts: 7,609 Do you haveany build threads here or elsewhere showing some of these steps? No, it's a tele forum...LOL. I just have a few pix of the necks here and there occasionally in other threads. Your triangular file and sandpaper step is exactly how I do mine as well. IT is a very nice looking moustache there. Regarding the holes for the tuners. I clamp a fence on the drill press table for the distance from the center of the bit to the edge of the peghead. Using an accurate scale and square, layout the distance between holes and from the edge of the peghead. It should be 2 -3/4 from outer peg to outer peg, and 1 - 3/8 to the middle if I recall correctly. I use a scribe to make a dent in the spot for drilling and use a brad point bit to drill through into scrap underneath. The scrap is for breakout protection. The fence keeps the holes in line. I always make the holes 1/64 larger than the diameter of the posts,and once in a while I'll open them up one more size if they are still tight. You should have ferrules for the top side right? Try it on scrap first. __________________ Lifetime Member IGPA
 November 21st, 2011, 07:23 AM #197 (permalink) Poster Extraordinaire     Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: East Tennessee Age: 54 Posts: 7,362 2 Photos Not to mention, IIRC, those tuners have the little pressed sheetmetal bushings on the top similar to the Gibson L-O (they even look like the same kind of tuners) __________________ "No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced." My Facebook
 November 21st, 2011, 08:07 AM #198 (permalink) Poster Extraordinaire     Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hemlock, NY Age: 59 Posts: 7,609 pressed sheetmetal bushings aka ferrules? :-)......bushings sound more mechanical....I like that. __________________ Lifetime Member IGPA
November 21st, 2011, 08:09 AM   #199 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by guitarbuilder pressed sheetmetal bushings aka ferrules? :-)......bushings sound more mechanical....I like that.
, yup
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November 21st, 2011, 09:28 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by kwerk Beautiful job, Glenn. That's some precision work.
Thanks, kwerk. My ability to do things like this improved a
lot after getting these.

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