Another paisley build

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by JPTannercaster

I used the 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's hard to get off your fingers so wear some rubber or latex gloves if you have any and cover up everything around where your spraying because it'll get everywhere somehow. It sets up real well if you apply it to both the wood and material, let it dry for about 45 seconds and stick together. FYI I used Deft Brushing Lacquer and saturated the tweed very heavily with about 8-10 coats with no lifting or releasing of the glue at all. The spray lacquer I had wouldn't build up and soak into the material enough. I sprayed my tweed tele that I built first and have recently decided to pull it apart and brush the lacquer on now.

Ive used Deft brushing lacquer for this as well. Although, I still havent done a guitar. Just wood working projects.

[adirondak5]

Originally Posted by JPTannercaster

I used the 3M Super 77 spray adhesive. It's hard to get off your fingers so wear some rubber or latex gloves if you have any and cover up everything around where your spraying because it'll get everywhere somehow. It sets up real well if you apply it to both the wood and material, let it dry for about 45 seconds and stick together. FYI I used Deft Brushing Lacquer and saturated the tweed very heavily with about 8-10 coats with no lifting or releasing of the glue at all. The spray lacquer I had wouldn't build up and soak into the material enough. I sprayed my tweed tele that I built first and have recently decided to pull it apart and brush the lacquer on now.

Thanks JP , I'll see if I can find some of the 3M Super 77 and try a test piece with that , I was planning on brushing on Deft Sand and Sealer after glue up of the material to bury the paisley and then level sand and then spray on clear .

Originally Posted by Colt W. Knight

Ive used Deft brushing lacquer for this as well. Although, I still havent done a guitar. Just wood working projects.

Colt , I know the spray on Deft clear takes forever to harden up , have you noticed any issues with the brush on lacquer ?

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by adirondak5

Thanks JP , I'll see if I can find some of the 3M Super 77 and try a test piece with that , I was planning on brushing on Deft Sand and Sealer after glue up of the material to bury the paisley and then level sand and then spray on clear .




Colt , I know the spray on Deft clear takes forever to harden up , have you noticed any issues with the brush on lacquer ?

Yes, same problems as the spray can stuff. I wont use it anymore. Takes forever to dry, soft, prone to imprintation, and very chemical reactive.

I actually meant to say Deft brushing lacquer sanding sealer.

[adirondak5]

I've been thinking about the whole process of doing a paisley body with the cloth material , I am thinking it might be cleaner and easier to us a tone bar instead of ferrules , one cut in the material instead of 6 , no cleaning out glue from 6 ferrule holes , just seems to me the way to go with this . I've looked around and really don't want to pay $35.00 to $60.00 for one , so I ordered some 1/2" x 1/2" brass and aluminum bar stock from McMaster-Carr and I'll try to make one , thanks to gagidlof
in his "MY TAKE ON A THINLINE" thread for posting how he made a tone bar , looks like it should be do-able.

[adirondak5]

Originally Posted by Colt W. Knight

Yes, same problems as the spray can stuff. I wont use it anymore. Takes forever to dry, soft, prone to imprintation, and very chemical reactive.

I actually meant to say Deft brushing lacquer sanding sealer.

Thanks Colt , thats good to know , I've used Deft sanding sealer quite a bit and have never had any problems with it hardening up , but the clear Lacquer is a different story.

[Colt W. Knight]

Originally Posted by adirondak5

Thanks Colt , thats good to know , I've used Deft sanding sealer quite a bit and have never had any problems with it hardening up , but the clear Lacquer is a different story.

I think the SS is good stuff. I still use it on my wood working projects.

[tvvoodoo]

Originally Posted by adirondak5

Thanks for the ideas tvvoodoo , that is some nice fabric you got there , that should look killer , I am going to be doing more test work , hopefully today and see what this does when sand and sealer is applied , I want to get this right before gluing anything to the body , I have seen paisley's done with the Mod Podge glue where they did just what you suggest. The only negative I have heard of with the Mod Podge is that it stays soft or elastic , and a pain to sand level. I think I can saturate the material with the Titebond Molding glue if need be , it dries pretty clear , we'll see what develops.

I agree totally on the modge - I have been trying to use modge on another project, and I'm about ready to just throw it away. It's far too soft to do any sanding upon - I don't trust it. I did my glue saturation test with ordinary weldbond which dries hard and clear, and is cost effective, but I also want to do another with sanding sealer, to see if there is a difference. I might even do one with dewaxed clear shellac, which would by my favoured product, just don't have any in stock right now.

[Colt W. Knight]

Ive used this with good results to glue the cloth down.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1

Then I just covered the cloth in lots of Sanding Sealer.

[Doubletriode]

would it be impratical to use laquer as glue?

one base coat on the body then, still wet, you apply the cloth and saturate it with more laquer while chasing bubbles and ripples

I am thinking about something like the process used to glue fiberglass with resin

it would avoid the problem of compatibility between adhesives and laquer

I havent tried that process on a guitar yet but, at one time in my life, I have done quite a bit of repairs on fiberglass boats...

good luck for your build.

[adirondak5]

Originally Posted by tvvoodoo

I agree totally on the modge - I have been trying to use modge on another project, and I'm about ready to just throw it away. It's far too soft to do any sanding upon - I don't trust it. I did my glue saturation test with ordinary weldbond which dries hard and clear, and is cost effective, but I also want to do another with sanding sealer, to see if there is a difference. I might even do one with dewaxed clear shellac, which would by my favoured product, just don't have any in stock right now.

Hi tvvoodoo , everything to do with cloth and paisley that I have read about the mod podge say the same , PIA to sand , gummy and soft . My test with the titebond original and deft sand and sealer was pretty positive , got good adhesion with the glue , no bleeding or spotches and good saturation with the sand and sealer on top with no loss of glue adhesion. Gonna do another test piece with 3M Super 77 spray adhesive and see how that comes out.

Originally Posted by Colt W. Knight

Ive used this with good results to glue the cloth down.

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1

Then I just covered the cloth in lots of Sanding Sealer.

Thanks Colt , I am going to do a test with the 3M Super 77 and see what thats like . I like the results I got with the Titebond Original and Deft sand and sealer , so we'll see how the 77 works and may try out the Weldwood also.

Originally Posted by Doubletriode

would it be impratical to use laquer as glue?

one base coat on the body then, still wet, you apply the cloth and saturate it with more laquer while chasing bubbles and ripples

I am thinking about something like the process used to glue fiberglass with resin

it would avoid the problem of compatibility between adhesives and laquer

I havent tried that process on a guitar yet but, at one time in my life, I have done quite a bit of repairs on fiberglass boats...

good luck for your build.

Thanks Doubletriode , I'm not sure but since lacquer melts into the previous coats of lacquer under I think you would have a loss of adhesion when you applied the top coats , I believe you need the cloth to be glued to the wood with a glue that is not melted or weakened or disolved by the lacquer .

[RATM]

This is going to be so cool, that fabric is killer.

[JPTannercaster]

This was the contact cement I used that didn't hold up under lacquer.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1
I know a guy that builds cabinets and he uses the regular DAP Contact Cement through an industrial spray rig to install formica onto wooden countertops and that stuff sets up within seconds of the two surfaces touching. I used the the non flammable water based because of a recommendation I seen on the tdpri that stated it had little to no odor and worked as well as regular contact cement. However, for me, it did not hold like regular contact cement would. Here's the post that was started a few years ago that may shed a little light for you too. It gives reference to Tolex glue, Wilsonart H20 and 3M Super 77 adhesives.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-centr...pot-lowes.html

[dlabstudio]

i've used elmers clear drying paintable glue, to glue down the fabric, after the glue was dried and the fabric trimmed, i clear coated the body with a waterbased clear coat. this acted as a barrier for the glue and sealed the fabric so it was less absorbant when i put the nitro on it. it worked fine.

[adirondak5]

Originally Posted by JPTannercaster

This was the contact cement I used that didn't hold up under lacquer.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?...llow&cId=PDIO1
I know a guy that builds cabinets and he uses the regular DAP Contact Cement through an industrial spray rig to install formica onto wooden countertops and that stuff sets up within seconds of the two surfaces touching. I used the the non flammable water based because of a recommendation I seen on the tdpri that stated it had little to no odor and worked as well as regular contact cement. However, for me, it did not hold like regular contact cement would. Here's the post that was started a few years ago that may shed a little light for you too. It gives reference to Tolex glue, Wilsonart H20 and 3M Super 77 adhesives.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-centr...pot-lowes.html

Thank JP , lots of good info there .

[adirondak5]

Originally Posted by dlabstudio

i've used elmers clear drying paintable glue, to glue down the fabric, after the glue was dried and the fabric trimmed, i clear coated the body with a waterbased clear coat. this acted as a barrier for the glue and sealed the fabric so it was less absorbant when i put the nitro on it. it worked fine.

Thanks dlabstudio , interesting , if I glued the fabric down with the original titebond and used maybe Polycrylic clear as a first seal coat and then nitro , I will look into that a bit more .

[dlabstudio]

Originally Posted by adirondak5

Thanks dlabstudio , interesting , if I glued the fabric down with the original titebond and used maybe Polycrylic clear as a first seal coat and then nitro , I will look into that a bit more .

the polycrylic stuff is great but i have only used it as a sealer. my spray rig is for solvent based only so i thinned down the polycrylic with a bit of water and pushed it through a prevel. it dries fast which is a nice luxurey.

[adirondak5]

Did another small test piece tonight , glued the fabric down last night with titebond original and tonight gave it a brush on coat of Polycrylic , my thinking is the polycrylic should not react with the glue chemically (both being water based), and I have sprayed lacquer over polycrylic before with no problems so it should be a good base shield for the fabric and titebond and a good base for the lacquer to go on top of. We'll see .





I'll let it dry for a day or so and then hit it with some lacquer.

On another front I got the 1/2" x 1/2" aluminum and brass bar stock from McMaster-Carr today , those guys are great , they have just about anything hardware wise you could think of and then some and they have the fastest shipping I've ever seen. So lets get to work on my tone bar proto-type .

I started off by scribing a center line on both the aluminum and brass , first I check the dimensions , they both are exactly 1/2" x 1/2"



Next I got out my old vintage type bridge that I use as a template to start string through holes and such , I figured it would be easier to use that as a template for the center lines for the holes. I scribed center lines on the aluminum bar perpendicular to the center line I previously scribed on the bar for all 6 string holes , then I carefully center punched the holes.



Next I check a ferrule to see what size the hole is in the bottom , looks like 7/64" to me , so I chuck up a 7/64 bit in the drill press , put the aluminum bar in the drill press vice , line up the bit with my first center punch mark and I turn the chuck by hand just to get all 6 holes started. Looks good so far.



Let me check it against my bridge .



Bad pic , but the holes are dead on.
Next I drill all 6 of the 7/64" holes all the way through the bar. Here I have 3 drilled through.



Next I measure the inside diameter of the ferrule , I get 15/64" , since I don't have a 15/64" drill bit I go with 7/32" , I don't think 1/64" is going to hurt me here , I set the depth stop on my drill press to the depth of the ferrule and start the drilling by spinning the chuck by hand , just to center up the bit in the smaller hole and then drill to the stop. First 3 drilled , 3 to go.



Here's all 6 drilled and beveled with a countersink , again , just spun the chuck by hand with the countersink to bevel the edges of the 7/32" holes .



So far so good , everything is looking straight and proper , now I take a 1/2" dowel and mark a radius on each end of the bar 1/4" from the outside edges of the outer 2 holes and cut the bar a bit outside of those marks.



Now its file time , I chuck the bar in my bench vice between 2 pieces of hard maple and start filing the end radius .



After getting it just about to shape with the file I finish the radius off on the ROSS sander and clean it up , I just took a sticky back piece of 320 grit stuck down on the bench and ran the tone bar over it on all sides , also beveled the edges of the bottom holes , the 7/64" ones , don't need and sharp edges against the strings.



Here's the straight edge of my machinists square along the holes , nice and straight.



It came out quite nicely , took about an hour and a half , now that I have a proto-type I could probably make them in an hour or less , I will make a routing template for this also later in the week , then I'll make one out of the brass , but not today.



Also , thanks again to forum member gagidlof for posting about making tone bars in his thread ,http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home...-thinline.html , it planted the seed , saved me some money and I had some fun making one.

[adirondak5]

Could not hit the other test piece with nitro this evening , its raining out as usual , so I made up the brass tone bar , using the aluminum one I made yesterday as a template , I just stacked the aluminum tone bar on top of the brass rod in my drill press vice and started the 7/64" holes , then took the aluminum tone bar out of the vice and finished the brass one up pretty much the same as the aluminum one. Got the time to make it down to about 45 minutes to .










Checked the hole spacing against my bridge/template , they are good.
Just need to shorten up the ends on the brass tone bar a touch to get it a perfect match to the aluminum , I'll do that with a file tomorrow , getting bleary eyed and hungry now .

[tvvoodoo]

This is some good work right here! Loving the home-made hardware. I wanted to do some spraying tonight after two weeks of rainy humid weather... clear skies today... except for...



TREE FLUFF! It's like a lawrence welk nightmare in my yard. Bring on the 100 mph winds.

[robt57]

Here is the glue one I started before I moved, the thread I started. I also used polycillic with the material just tight bond glued on. It is in my storage unit 2800 miles from when I took the pics you see in the thread. ;)

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home...er-advice.html