1959 ES-335TD proto build

[preeb]

After a long wait and a lot of work involved with getting the many unique specs of the early 335's it's about time to start the build thread.
Let me begin by saying that this time I'm not doing this project alone.
I've been very fortunate having Ken McKay, a master builder with a lot of experience in making hollow bodies, building the body to my required specs and we also had the one and only Bharat Khandekar on the loop which helped us achieve the goal.
Ken already made my entire first proto body and the result is striking and super accurate down to the finest details.
I have asked him to post the first section of this build showing how the body was made and I hope he will kindly agree to post it here.
Soon after I'll continue with the rest of the build.
Please note that this is the first proto and many things can go wrong or take a little time so please be patient... lots of specs, drawings, tooling and jigs are required to get it done correctly.

['59_Standard]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or something along those lines...

[Nick JD]

Someone else is building the bodies?

[preeb]

Originally Posted by '59_Standard

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or something along those lines...

LOL. I knew you'd say that (-;

[preeb]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

Someone else is building the bodies?

I knew you'd say that too...
look here:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home...ml#post3279755

[telemcCaster]

It is my pleasure to be working with Gil on this ES 335 TD project. In case you don't know my name is Ken McKay and I go by Telemccaster here on TDPRI. I hope to make contributions to this thread that will be half as interesting as Gil's other build threads. I am anxiously waiting to see his work and the finished product. It might even be a surprise that Gil is not building the body himself but I assure you there is plenty of work to be done yet that requires a good deal of expertise, careful planning, tooling... yea, the rabbit hole goes pretty deep. And as Gil wrote, we worked together to get this vintage correct! So stay tuned for my method of building the body, I hope you find it interesting. I have the photo's on my hard drive and will be uploading them with explanations later today as time permits.

[free2rock]

Here we go.... :-)

[Fred_Garvin]

Bravo, Gil and Ken! I've been looking forward to this.

[kidmo]

This will be the build of the year for me as I explore my various GAS options I am now at the point of being very much in love with 335's. Looking forward to this thread immensely!

[telemcCaster]

Replicating a stringed instrument requires a good original. I chose this 1959 beauty.

[telemcCaster]

And taking it apart screw for screw as careful as possible, it is ready for a plaster cast to be poured.

[telemcCaster]

Measurements are taken and tracings are rubbed for the ff holes and control points. The outline is carefully traced. A drawing is made of the body to use as a master template.

[telemcCaster]

Next installment...the master mold is made and materials are discussed.

[Bluessoldier]

Man preeb, now a 335!?

One day you'll get a Nobel prize for guitar building.

[MRJ.]

Thanks for this thread Gil and Ken!

[PapaLion]

Preeb, excellent choice. I will enjoy watching you complete it. Red with a Bigsby? would be nice.

[Bolide]

New Preeb build thread, with special appearance by hollow body specialist Ken McKay?
No doubt the best news of the week.

[SackvilleDan]

This is going to be fantastic... I can't wait!

[Mike Simpson]

I am interested in watching this project. For many years I played a 1962 ES-335TD and I still have it. My 335 has a factory bigsby and there were no stop tail holes ever drilled. Also 1962 is the first year of block inlays.... ya I know everyone wants a dot neck but nobody would pass up what I paid for this 1962...

[deaconque]

I've been anxiously awaiting this build for a while. Can't wait to see the progress.

[telemcCaster]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

The ES guitar is made of wood just like any other guitar of that period. Plywood gets a bad rap, you won't read that phrase again here. The Kalamazoo factory on Parsons Street did not use it (the evil p word) to make their laminated guitars, they pressed wood laminates to the shape of a guitar. After WWII there was much R&D that went into making structures of laminated wood and Kalamazoo was right in the middle of this.

Parson's Street employed many skilled luthiers who could carve a fantastic archtop plate before lunch so they had the skill to carve a mold. The original pattern was then used to make a veneer press. The technology utilized thin veneers that were pressed to shape inside a mold and then held in place while heat was applied to set the glue. This took just a few minutes using the Phenyl formaldehyde glue.

I am not going to discuss much of this now and will go on to more interesting things but will gladly return if there is further interest.

I had much difficulty finding the correct veneer thickness and size to make lam plates. I searched high and low and finally found a custom veneer slicer right here in Michigan where the original stuff came from. He now supplies me with my custom cut veneer and even delivers it right to my shop.

And here is an original ES 345 TD of a friend comparing to one of my bodies on my bench.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by Bluessoldier

Man preeb, now a 335!?

One day you'll get a Nobel prize for guitar building.

Thank you, but for now you should address this to Ken.
In any case... the prize should go to a small group of people working in the Gibson plant back in 1958... we are still walking in their shadows trying to figure out how they did what they did from scratch.

[LC100]

Questions:

What thickness are the veneer layers?

What is finished veneer thickness and is there a difference between front and back plate?

Why PF glue (I know but think it should be stated)?

[telemcCaster]

To make the first prototype body I needed to decide how I would press the plates. There were several choices. I had been pressing laminated plates for years but always used thinner veneer. This thick stuff was going to be a challenge, I thought. Using a vacuum press sounds elaborate but is really pretty simple technology. I will show some photos later in the tread. But first I need to make a mold for the veneers to conform to while glue is set.

I have been using a formaldehyde glue called urea formaldehyde which is similar to PF glue and the glue line has proved to be unmeasurable. I am satisfied with how it works and have guitars that are several years old which are fine. This glue will set without added heat but takes hours and hours instead of minutes. In a production situation this would be impractical but for a small shop it works fine. To make a set of plates, I can have the vacuum run over night and take them out in the morning.

There is a photo above that shows the cast of the original's back. The back and front plates are identical in this type of guitar so luckily one mold will be sufficient. This cast was used to make a mold. To do this I simply put it face down and covered it with a square of plywood about 24X18 inches with large 3/4 inch holes drilled to squirt in some plaster of paris. The cast was covered with plastic wrap to preserve it and allow removal of the mold.

Veneer bends and conforms to very radius depending on its strength properties and thickness. Veneer laminates will then spring back to a flatter shape depending on these properties and the number of layers glued together. I am going to discuss the veneer thickness later and how they relate to the historic example that I copied as well as some other years. I had to compensate for the inevitable sprint-back by applying some additional material to the mold. It is really just trial and error and I had to do several tests to get this right.

Here you can see me adding auto body bondo to the mold in strategic places. I did this and sanded it until the pressed plates came out right.

like this...Hah hah a Gil copycat.

[clarksguitars]

I too received quality products from Ken - specifically the top / bottom plates and ribs. This was before he was doing the bodies but I think the results speak for themselves. Without Ken this wouldn't have been at all possible. Thanks again Ken!

[telemcCaster]

Hey Austin, thanks. That is a beauty for sure. Got any sound clips of that.

By the way, that beautiful whitey is a different shape in the horns and different laminates which will be discussed in this thread.

[junk mutt]

I am not going to discuss much of this now and will go on to more interesting things but will gladly return if there is further interest.

Any further interest ?? Are you kidding ??

Ken, with all due respect, we need to know everything.
I mean EVERYTHING.
This is the highlight for me so far this year !!
In my humble opinion the 335 is one of the most beautiful guitars in the world.

[Sterling Indigo]

WOWZ, another impeccable Preeb build, 335 no less! With Michigan representin'... Welcome Ken, I'm very excited to subscribe this thread.

[clarksguitars]

Ken here's a video of it in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVGoFzhwVkA

[preeb]

Here's a nice video showing the use of the old press machines



Gibson used many different ways to shorten glue curing time to cut production time including Heat over PF glue like we see in the video and microwave ("Radio") to cure UF and PF in smaller gluing jobs such as maple top jointing, neck ears...etc...
Another design aspect of the laminate body of the 335 was to reduce feedback and not only to save time and $$$.

[alexands]

telemcCaster and Preeb - thank you both for your willingness to share your knowledge and skill.

I am really looking forward to watching this!

[Paradoxo]

Awesome Guys!!! Thanks a lot - this will be a killer Thread!! ;)

bye a very curious
Paradoxo

[Shepherd]

Nice work Ken. I've been planning on getting one of your top sets for a couple of years now but something always comes up and back to my dream list it goes.

[telemcCaster]

Here is the mold ready to be duplicated. This will serve as a master that can be changed if necessary. I can then make 2 more working molds to press the plates. My vacuum bag allows 2 plates to be pressed.

You can see the master plate mold with a mock up of the outline and controls. Please notice the locating holes to and fro. These are critical in locating the plates to each and every subsequent jig so everything lines up correctly.

Thanks Gil for posting the vids.

Austin, that fiddle sounds good. Nice cutting ability above the band. Those are Gibson pups as I recall.

[telemcCaster]

***
dupicate

[preeb]

Here's the actual oven/press from the old Kalamazoo factory.
All the original 50's laminate body plates were made with this very tool.
I believe Gibson still keeps it in working condition.
It's worth mentioning that heat, although normally used to keep wood flexible as it bends, has been applied here for a another reason, to cure the glue almost instantly. Therefore, the use of overnight vacuum VS heat press is perfectly fine as long as the glue film has a "zero" thickness and the target plate shape is achieved with no voids between the veneer layers. I find this bit of info important since not all the original factory methods are available to us and finding the right workaround is crucial to achieving the same results in a reasonable way + understanding the original methods is important in order to determine if the workaround is acceptable.
The only concern I presented to Ken regarding this stage was the "zero" glue film and Ken measured the total thickness to verify it was indeed the exact sum of the pre glued veneers.

[tangelolemon]

yesssss at last!

[Nick JD]

I wonder if there will be much tonal variation between a vacuum bagged and a heat pressed 335 - especially with the heat acting on the veneer's moisture content? I wouldn't think so, but it's a big part of the "vintage correctness", isn't it?

[telemcCaster]

Originally Posted by Nick JD

I wonder if there will be much tonal variation between a vacuum bagged and a heat pressed 335 - especially with the heat acting on the veneer's moisture content? I wouldn't think so, but it's a big part of the "vintage correctness", isn't it?

Nah,

I now press my sides with heat similarly to the old Gibby press, only a manual type, and having done it cold with a vacuum previously, I am convinced there is no difference in the wood properties. I do have a hot plate press in the works so this will be a good way to confirm. I only expect it to speed up the glue cure and make no other difference.

There is other things to worry about like getting the plates to behave after pressing as moisture from the glue and wood evaporates. I will be discussing this.

[zook]

I am in Awe! I love 335's

Winnie