1959 Les Paul Build

[dietrichluthier]

enough with the plans

gil did an excellent post, taught us many things vintage les paul

if you want to do it yourselves planes,
if they think they do best

gil has given much information in this post

can not be so ungrateful

sorry my English is not good

[Ziggy]

Originally Posted by Scooby Snax

No, I love that it's that simple.

If I remember from school, they used to use tissue? Not the kind you blow your nose, but the wrapping up dishes tissue.

I think I may give it a shot.

Just to say I did it.

Sorry to reply to an older message:

If you want to experiment, just put a couple of pieces of aluminum foil between pages of a book.

You can then adjust the capacitance by either changing the number of pages between the foil or pulling the foil out a bit.

I used to do this with my engineering students to show how to tune a simple germanium diode (AM) radio.

I have read that soldiers in WW2 could use rusty razor blades and pencils connected to barbed wire to listen to German radio transmissions. Sounds wild but in theory it would work. The rust in this case would act as the dielectric in the capacitor.

Capacatance depends mostly on the size of the plates (the foil) and the distance between the plates. The distance between the plates is filled with what is called a dielectric and this could be air, plastic, micah...etc.

If you ever open up an old analog TV you will see a bunch of silver plates connected the "channel" adjustment. The tuning circuits were adjusted by moving a series of plates in and out of alignment with fixed plates.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by alk-3

Hi Gil.
The only thing about our plan that is 'a good workable plan' is the fingerboard. everything else is taken from original burst measurements. it does not surprise me that your measurements don't match ours, because every burst is different. That does not mean that our plans are wrong.

Here is some reading on the rule of 18. I'm not trying to take away from your work by any means, I'm just saying that it was no secret.
You'll find more by googling 'rule of 18'.

http://www.cybozone.com/luthier/inst...fretscale.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(string_instruments)
http://www.acousticmasters.com/Acous...ers_Tuning.htm

Anyway, this discussion may be better put to rest at this point, i just don't want people getting the idea that our plans are inaccurate beyond the pickup error and the fret scale length. I'm sure you can understand my position on this, and my desire to defend our work.

No need to defend anything because no one was attacking...
Defending it too much might give the wrong impression (-;

And regarding the rule of 18.... Well... I knew about this old system and even had it in my vintage info documentation but one need to make the connection first. I mean... I didn't realize (like everybody else... or almost everybody else...) that Gibson kept that method up until 1959 !!!
Where does it say that a 59 Les Paul has that scale BTW?!?
When I had the burst fret slots accurately measured I got the numbers in front of me for the first time and I didn't even tried to match it against the primitive rule of 18 (Hey... it's the holly grail of guitars right (-; ).
So now.. it's only too easy to say "Yeah... we all knew about this and it was all over the web" ... LOL ... I'm only joking Tom...
If you were close I would have invited you over for a few beers... maybe some day... Take it easy friend!

[preeb]

Originally Posted by dietrichluthier

enough with the plans

gil did an excellent post, taught us many things vintage les paul

if you want to do it yourselves planes,
if they think they do best

gil has given much information in this post

can not be so ungrateful

sorry my English is not good

Dear dietrichluthier,
Regardless of your English...
I COULDN'T HAVE PUT IT ANY BETTER MYSELF (-;

[micpoc]

Originally Posted by preeb

Thanks TJ (-;
I probably always appear online since I leave my shop Laptop open for 24 Hours... Maybe I should install a web cam and do a live feed from the shop (-;

YES!! DO IT!!

It's been said before, but I also appreciate everything presented in this thread (which should be stickied, by the way ); it has been a tremendous learning opportunity. While I hope that you some day make your plans available to the general public, you've in the meantime given us more than enough to chew on; many thanks.

A question (I posted this over on the MLP forum as well): I'm just starting to learn about LP construction, and have noticed that, in all the pics I've seen of late 50's LPs, the slightly rounded neck tenon stops a little short of the more squared-off tenon rout on the body. What was the thinking behind this construction standard? I would have thought that full contact at the end of the neck would be desirable; any insight?

[cmatthes]

Originally Posted by preeb

Thanks.
It's not the skill, it's the will !!!

Gil - thanks! Some very inspiring words in a very inspiring thread.

I agree that life is too short not to take some adventures along the way. Hopefully, a cool build like this will be one of mine one of these days.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by micpoc

YES!! DO IT!!

It's been said before, but I also appreciate everything presented in this thread (which should be stickied, by the way ); it has been a tremendous learning opportunity. While I hope that you some day make your plans available to the general public, you've in the meantime given us more than enough to chew on; many thanks.

A question (I posted this over on the MLP forum as well): I'm just starting to learn about LP construction, and have noticed that, in all the pics I've seen of late 50's LPs, the slightly rounded neck tenon stops a little short of the more squared-off tenon rout on the body. What was the thinking behind this construction standard? I would have thought that full contact at the end of the neck would be desirable; any insight?

Great and important question!!!
I failed to explain that during the actual build... so thanks for bringing that up (-;

The gap left in the mortise is the right and only way to do it. It's a common practice among old school builders that do animal glue joints (Hide glue included). The neck joint is the most important joint in the guitar and needs to be super tight and therefore a lot of glue needs to be used to fill up all voids and create a super strong and fluent bond.
When inserting the neck, the tenon must be pushed in sideways and not from the top (hence the pointy tenon head...) while its bottom rides very tightly against the bottom of the mortise. This action pushes the excess glue forward and in that point it starts to gel... so the gap you are referring to is where the excess glue ends up. All 50's Lesters have dry Hide glue in there (-;

BTW... All my Hide glue joints (even the small ones) are done while sliding the parts since hide glue can't be squeezed out properly by surface pressure... only way is to drive it or wipe it out.

[micpoc]

Originally Posted by preeb

Great and important question!!!
I failed to explain that during the actual build... so thanks for bringing that up (-;

The gap left in the mortise is the right and only way to do it. It's a common practice among old school builders that do animal glue joints (Hide glue included). The neck joint is the most important joint in the guitar and needs to be super tight and therefore a lot of glue needs to be used to fill up all voids and create a super strong and fluent bond.
When inserting the neck, the tenon must be pushed in sideways and not from the top (hence the pointy tenon head...) while its bottom rides very tightly against the bottom of the mortise. This action pushes the excess glue forward and in that point it starts to gel... so the gap you are referring to is where the excess glue ends up. All 50's Lesters have dry Hide glue in there (-;

BTW... All my Hide glue joints (even the small ones) are done while sliding the parts since hide glue can't be squeezed out properly by surface pressure... only way is to drive it or wipe it out.

Fascinating; so, it's essentially a reservoir for excess glue runoff. . . that does make sense.

The response on the MLP forum included the following:

- ". . . a typical mortise and tenon joint does not require the end grain to come into contact (unless for aesthetic reasons, like the shoulders). this is true for furniture as well. It basically adds no additional strength, but causes much grief in fitting."

- "The three sides that are glue surfaces are more than adequate to keep the neck and body together."

- ". . . end grain to end grain glue joints have nearly zero strength, so it adds nothing to the integrity of the joint."

See, my noobie brain would think that there would be some "sonic advantage" to having full-on, four-sided contact for vibration transmission. . . but I suppose that's just pseudo-science, huh?

Thanks again.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by micpoc

Fascinating; so, it's essentially a reservoir for excess glue runoff. . . that does make sense.

The response on the MLP forum included the following:

- ". . . a typical mortise and tenon joint does not require the end grain to come into contact (unless for aesthetic reasons, like the shoulders). this is true for furniture as well. It basically adds no additional strength, but causes much grief in fitting."

- "The three sides that are glue surfaces are more than adequate to keep the neck and body together."

- ". . . end grain to end grain glue joints have nearly zero strength, so it adds nothing to the integrity of the joint."

See, my noobie brain would think that there would be some "sonic advantage" to having full-on, four-sided contact for vibration transmission. . . but I suppose that's just pseudo-science, huh?

Thanks again.

I still believe it's better to have the reservoir as full with hide glue as possible.
The less voids around that joint the better even if it's not direct wood on wood joint.

[Scott Auld]

Originally Posted by Maple_Leaf

...I am now the very proud owner of the Gil Yaron guitar discussed in the 2974 posts preceding this one.

Congrats, man. You have something very, very special. Ignore the static in the end of this thread and cherish your instrument, it's a pearl.

[NateM]

Hey Gil,

What is the purpose of the oil in the PIO cap? Is it to ensure that the paper maintains constant contact with the aluminum or does it change the dielectric properties of the paper in some way?

[Bob J]

Gil

Were you joking about making the plans available on this site for free? Have you done this with your Fender plans? I am toying with the idea of a tele build...

[sasparilla]

Hi again,

just thinking about the weight of my final Les Paul.

Did you use the 2.8 kg Body for this Prototype?(with routed Cavitys and without Maple Top)

[sasparilla]

one more thing...

Is there a way to verify Brazilian Rosewood?

I have a chance to get some, but how can i be shure its the Original?

Are you able to distinguish those Kind of Rosewood? I mean you seem to have a lot experience

I attached some Pictures of it.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3038/foto0054r.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4594/foto0058p.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5118/foto0055k.jpg

[preeb]

Originally Posted by NateM

Hey Gil,

What is the purpose of the oil in the PIO cap? Is it to ensure that the paper maintains constant contact with the aluminum or does it change the dielectric properties of the paper in some way?

Truth is.. I have no clue...
I guestimate it serves as a better dialectic and protects the paper from catching fire in the case of excessive heat. Not a big concern in guitars (usually... LOL) but in high voltage they heat up and sometimes explode... well... pop.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by Bob J

Gil

Were you joking about making the plans available on this site for free? Have you done this with your Fender plans? I am toying with the idea of a tele build...

I wouldn't be holding my breath... but if I'll ever share this kind of info it will be right here and for free. I don't believe in selling plans of guitars designed by others... building them is enough for me.
BTW, there are good Tele plans shared by Ed right here on the forum, look it up. Ed is a super nice guy too and it's good karma to use his creations.

[preeb]

Originally Posted by sasparilla

one more thing...

Is there a way to verify Brazilian Rosewood?

I have a chance to get some, but how can i be shure its the Original?

Are you able to distinguish those Kind of Rosewood? I mean you seem to have a lot experience

I attached some Pictures of it.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3038/foto0054r.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4594/foto0058p.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5118/foto0055k.jpg

Looks right... but only way to distinguish between BRRW, COCOBOLO and MADAGASCAR RIO is by the smell. BRRW has a special smell that can be tested when wetting and rubbing it (or when sawed of course).
That's the only way I test it (on guitars too (-;)
Just so you know... many of the late 50's Lesters came with Cocobolo rather than BRRW...

[sasparilla]

Originally Posted by preeb

Looks right... but only way to distinguish between BRRW, COCOBOLO and MADAGASCAR RIO is by the smell. BRRW has a special smell that can be tested when wetting and rubbing it (or when sawed of course).
That's the only way I test it (on guitars too (-;)
Just so you know... many of the late 50's Lesters came with Cocobolo rather than BRRW...

Very interesting... so BRW has a clearly different Smell than Indian Rosewood?

Because i know how Indian RW smells.

[mike shaw]

Sounds like a good use for Smellanet!

[superV]

Originally Posted by preeb

Looks right... but only way to distinguish between BRRW, COCOBOLO and MADAGASCAR RIO is by the smell. BRRW has a special smell that can be tested when wetting and rubbing it (or when sawed of course).
That's the only way I test it (on guitars too (-;)
Just so you know... many of the late 50's Lesters came with Cocobolo rather than BRRW...

I second the cocobolo statement. Fenders too. Lots of brazilian cocobolo was sold as Brazilian rosewood because it is. Its a true rosewood and it does grow in Brazil. It just is not dalbergia nigra which is what we all mean by brazilian RW. Although both companies bought mexican Coco too I heard. Gibson to me is just rumour but I was told this by an old timer at Fender that Cocobolo was used on many slab boards. The old stuff does look like braz. the newer crops not really.