Unhappy with a body that just arrived...am I making a mountain out of a mole hill?

[tcarp]

I just got a 4lb 7oz Swamp Ash body from a well known and respected supplier often spoken of here. The name need not be mentioned at this juncture...my intention isn't to start a flame war.

The body was advertised as being sealed and grain filled. ready to be finished, and priced accordingly. I wanted to avoid the mess of prepping the wood myself....I planned on priming/painting/clearing the body "right out of the box".

If I understand the wood prep process correctly, the body should be sealed, and then grain filler is applied to even the entire surface so that when the primer (in my case) is applied, it should be completely smooth without any shrinkage into the grain. Theoretically, grain filler is to wood what bondo is to metal, correct? Should you not be able to feel the grain?

The "sealed/grain filled" body I received has several areas of wide, unattracive looking grain....not a problem since the body is to get an opaque finish. But the grain is still very deep and the overall wood feels very uneven to the touch. If I shot a coat of primer on it now, I get the impression that the body would look and feel like a rake was dragged across the surface. I don't think I could ever apply enough primer to fill all of the grain depressions.

As far as the sealing, it appears blotchy and rough, and still shiny in numerous areas. From what I've seen and read here, this seems sloppy. I don't know what a grain filled body is supposed to look like, but it seems that if grain fill was even used, it wasn't enough.

I have zero ziltch nyet nada experience with wood prep, but my gut tells me the prep just isn't right.

I just wrote to the manufacturer of my concerns, but now I'm second guessing myself. Am I expecting too much due to my inexperience? Is it normal for a grain filled Swamp Ash body to still have very noticible and deep grain depressions? Or should proper grain filling on a Swamp Ash body result in a smooth, even surface, ready to accept it's first primer coat?

Otherwise the body is dead-on.....my Thinline neck fits snugly, the pick guard and control plate line up well, the neck humbucker rout is perfect, and the weight will make a very comfy, roughly 7lb 2.5 oz guitar.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Tom

[PixelMover]

have a photo?

[tcarp]

Sorry...shoulda mentioned that I tried to take some pics, but what I'm talking about can't be experienced in a picture. You have to run your hand and fingers across the wood to feel the ruts and depressions.

Tom

[Stuco]

If the manufacturer could give you a discount that would probably be what I'd go for. The grain filling should be easy compared to the color/clear coat and wetsanding/polishing parts.

[thomo5150]

Post some pics if you can.

[tcarp]

I'll try a better verbal description:

Running my fingers across the wood below and parallel with the bridge area is like feeling ripples wherever the grain is most prominent. It sorta feels like a severe case of lacquer checking.

The wood is smooth as if it was sanded but it's lumpy feeling.....best I can come up with.

Tom

[68thinline]

Sounds like a mole hill. Just sand the body with 220-grit paper and spray your primer...

[tcarp]

Sounds like a mole hill. Just sand the body with 220-grit paper and spray your primer

I'm thinking if I paid for a sealed and filled body, "ready for refinishing", then no additional work should be needed.

How will 220 sanding even out the body? Some of the grain depressions are so deep that I'd I have to shave several mils off the entire body to to acheive a uniform surface.

Tom

[68thinline]

Originally Posted by tcarp

I'm thinking if I paid for a sealed and filled body, "ready for refinishing", then no additional work should be needed.

How will 220 sanding even out the body? Some of the grain depressions are so deep that I'd I have to shave several mils off the entire body to to acheive a uniform surface.

Tom

Then you build it first with sealer, shellac, or filler. It doesn't sound like a lot of work on your part to just take care of it. It's a piece of wood for crying out loud.

Post some pics.

[Buckocaster51]

Sounds to me like the humidity changed between where it was made "ready for finishing" and where it is now.

Wood is fickle stuff. The instant you cut a tree down it starts plotting to get you!

I have a Martin guitar in the house. During the summer the grain is in the spruce top is nice and level and almost invisible. Over the last couple of weeks it has taken on the appearance of the Basin and Range area out west.

Not much to be done without climate control.

Have you talked to the vendor for their read on it?

[garytelecastor]

Contact the seller and explain your situation.
You may be surprised by their response.

[68thinline]

Originally Posted by tcarp

Theoretically, grain filler is to wood what bondo is to metal, correct?

No.

Originally Posted by tcarp

I have zero ziltch nyet nada experience with wood prep, but my gut tells me the prep just isn't right.

Originally Posted by tcarp

Otherwise the body is dead-on.....my Thinline neck fits snugly, the pick guard and control plate line up well, the neck humbucker rout is perfect, and the weight will make a very comfy, roughly 7lb 2.5 oz guitar.

Look around the site here and you'll see some of the issues folks have buying bodies or neck for a partscaster. Really, you should consider yourself lucky.

[Big Mike Simpson]

If you are not happy with what you purchased then you should ask the seller if you can return it and move on.

If sanding sealer (I used shellac) is an issue for you and I understand you feel you already paid for that process... painting an opaque finish and buffing that out is a lot more work and more difficult than wood prep and sealer coat...

[Goluphi]

It does not sound like the body was properly grain filled (or, if it was, the grain filler has settled and needs another coat - pretty normal, actually). I wouldn't consider it a big deal - grain filling is really easy (you just need patience). After grain filling, the body should be smooth as a sheet of glass, and you should actually see the filler in the grain.

It sounds like you have a nice body. Takes this as an opportunity to learn about grain filling.

[hackworth1]

Big Mike is right. Its harder to do the finish work that you intend to do yourself than it is to do the prep.

That said, if you are not happy with your purchase, ask for a refund. Send it back.

If I were you, I would buy a can of appropriate color grain filler. McFadden is excellent. Grizzly dot com carries it. Rub it in against the grain with an old credit card. Let dry overnite.

Sand with 320 grit and a sanding block. Wipe clean with naptha and a clean rag. Then apply sanding sealer. Let dry overnite.

Sand with 320 grit and a sanding block. Wipe clean with naptha.

Now you are ready for your finish coats.

[tcarp]

Post some pics

I had mentioned earlier that the pics I took don't adequetly show the defects (for lack of a better term).

Big Mike is right. Its harder to do the finish work that you intend to do yourself than it is to do the prep

I actually have much more confidence in my painting skills than I do with untried wood prep chores. I'm a "shortest distance between two points" kinda guy and the descriptions of the mess created with grain filling that I've read about led me in another direction. When I saw this body advertised as ready to paint, it pushed my button. Unlike many of you folks who frequently build guitars and amass large collections, I don't foresee that for myself. My partscaster career will probably be perhaps one or two, and I'll call it a day. I know my limitations, particularly in the patience department. If I had the time, talent, tools, motivation, and desire, I'd build one from scratch, but that's not my thing.

It doesn't sound like a lot of work on your part to just take care of it. It's a piece of wood for crying out loud.

If you purchased a neck that was advertised as a 7.5" radius but was delivered with a 10", would you re-work it? It's just a piece of wood. If you have the skills and knowledge, more power to you. Not all of us do.


I really do appreciate all of the advice and comments....thanks to all. Hopefully the vendor will address my concerns. I don't expect a resolution so close to Christmas...he has a life too and I'm a reasonable person. But the more I inspect the body, the more uneveness and grain depression I find, and that's not what I bought into. This isn't a $60 body from some foreign, back yard shop.

More comments are certainly welcome......

Merry Christmas to all!

Tom

[Southern Ill Electrics]

Hey ,I bought a $60 body from a USA shop........so ya got a little bit of sanding and filling to do.....Mine is at least 10 pieces,chatter on the round over and tear out, bridge pilot holes crooked and ferrrels holes tottaly messed.........the whole body would need planed down and I doubt that would make it usalbe.......


I'll trade ya.

[Rooney]

It's really close to impossible to make any kind of decision on how bad a job it is unless you post pictures. I would think that any piece of wood left unfinished would still have an unevenness to it no matter how much sanding was done. It's just the way wood is, different parts of it move different ways. And if you're shooting an opaque color over the wood I don't know that blotchy filling will matter unless it's gonna blotch up the paint job. (I'm no paint expert so I don't know how it'd react) I think we need to see pictures before any definite advice can really be administered.

[tcarp]

It's really close to impossible to make any kind of decision on how bad a job it is unless you post pictures

I've discussed the photo issue previously.

It is impossible to photograph the sunken grain. I've tried, and all the pic shows is a very nice looking body with prominent grain features. But running fingers across the top and back of the body tells the story. I can't make this point any more clear.

My intention all along was to paint an opaque finish, and the only reason I selected this Swamp Ash body was because it was advertised as ready to paint and the weight (4lbs 7oz) was very appealing.

Regardless, it seems like it might be becoming a moot point. I've been in contact with the vendor and although he feels strongly that the body was properly prepped, he has offered an accomodation. He normally would not take a return because of the special order humbucker neck rout but seems willing to make an exception in the interest of customer service. It's my understanding that Alder generally does not require grain fill and that's what I'll be asking for assuming I can get a similar body weight.

Hindsight is 20/20 and perhaps Alder would have been the way to go in the first place. But the fact remains that the product I purchased did not meet expectations based on the advertised description.

I hope to do business with this vendor. Prep issues not withstanding, test fitting parts was as if it was a genuine Fender body and I'm pleased and impressed with the basic quality of the part.

Should we reach an amicable conclusion, I'll gladly reveal his name as an example of good customer service.

Thanks to all.....

Tom

[04renostar]

In my opinion, the size of this mountain or molehill all depends on what you paid for this body. If you only paid say 30 to 60 bucks for the body, then it's probably just a little molehill and you now have some initial finish work to do before you start with the paint. E bay stuff at this price is usually a get what you paid for kinda thing. I'm dealing with that now with a body I recently purchased myself.

However, if you paid say 125.00+ for the body, then the seller really should do something to help you fix the issues you have. Maybe they can at least send you a can of good grain filler to help fix the problem. If they're really the respected, they should be more than willing to make things right.

Hope the helps & good luck

[Five-O]

I'm pretty sure I know the who the maker of your body is, and I will say from past experience that although their bodies are very nice , they only do enough grain fill to be able to advertise as such...probally one application. If you want it to be a mirror finish you'll have to re-apply and sand it a couple more times. I will say that the level they ( if it's who I think it is ) bring it up to doesn't look or feel too bad when doing a natural or satin finish. If you wont settle for less than perfect, I suggest you send it back, but you will probally pay a lot more for what it sounds like your seeking...Wish ya luck.

[flyingbanana]

Why don't you take some up close pictures (as others have mentioned) down right by the body where the issues are, post them here and let us be the judge of whether the pics are good enough or not. At some point, we gotta see the pics....or you could fly us all over there to your city and we could meet at a local Starbucks and look at the body together over coffee and a blueberry muffin.

[stucliff]

IMHO I think that you should do what Buckocaster have said and talk to the vendor. They not gonna bite you, or get mad at you. I'm quite shure that this kind of things happens to them more often than you think, and they should know what to do about it.

On the other hand, if you're confident on your skills on "painting" or finishing a guitar, you shouldn't have any concerns about a little pore filling. It takes three things 1.-Filler 2.-A good set of sandpaper 3.- Patience. But no particular skills are needed and (at least to me) it's a very nice job to do...
But have in mind that you must ask the vendor/manufacturer what products do they use and what you should use to do the job without any compatibility issues.

Regards

[Ricky D.]

Originally Posted by tcarp

... Regardless, it seems like it might be becoming a moot point. I've been in contact with the vendor and although he feels strongly that the body was properly prepped, he has offered an accomodation. He normally would not take a return because of the special order humbucker neck rout but seems willing to make an exception in the interest of customer service. It's my understanding that Alder generally does not require grain fill and that's what I'll be asking for assuming I can get a similar body weight.

... But the fact remains that the product I purchased did not meet expectations based on the advertised description.

I hope to do business with this vendor. Prep issues not withstanding, test fitting parts was as if it was a genuine Fender body and I'm pleased and impressed with the basic quality of the part.

Should we reach an amicable conclusion, I'll gladly reveal his name as an example of good customer service.

Thanks to all.....

Tom

I think the position you are taking is reasonable. You paid up for a grain-filled body, ready to paint, and that's not what you got. That ought to be evened out somehow. As a vendor selling a product sight-unseen, it behooves you to deliver quality that is beyond criticism or make clear that there will be flaws.

[tcarp]

I've had this body now since just before Christmas and I continue to have mixed feelings. Sometimes I get so pissed off about it, and other times I look at this body and say that this has the potential to be a helluva guitar.

On one hand, it sticks in my craw that I paid for something that I feel was misrepresented and at some point it gets annoying just settling for something and biting the bullet. And that's been the primary concern.

Yet on the other hand, the body itself is everything I could have asked for. It's perfectly proportioned, it's got an h-bucker neck rout, all parts fit as if it was a genuine Fender product, and the weight is just so right. I had originally described the grain pattern as unattractive but I had planned on a RR Coral finish so that wasn't an issue. But after mocking up the neck, control plate, bridge and pickguard, except for one area, most of the offensive grain pattern will be hidden. As a result I've re-thought an opaque color on my first partscaster since a body of this overall quality screams for a transparent finish like blond or MK white.

And so the dilemna. I know that if I swap this for a similar weight Alder body, I probably won't get a grain pattern that will do a transparent color justice. So I've got to decide exactly what my priorities are.....do I want an attractive exposed grained finish, deal with the devil I have and grain fill a body that has so many good points, or do I stand on principle and demand satisfaction?

It's a rhetorical question and only one that I can answer.

Tom

[mlp-mx6]

At the very least you should talk with your vendor. Give them the chance to make you a happy customer. If you don't and you decide to keep the body you will be dissatisfied EVERY TIME you look at it. It will never not bother you.

Just keep your wits about you and try to keep the emotion out of that call. DO NOT let it escalate in any way - even if they're behinds about it. Future business with that vendor will be determined by that outcome. What you do with this body could well be a separate decision. If the wood is worth making into the body you want, then there's that decision. If you have to do a little more grain fill (I'd suggest super glue) to get it smooth and level then GET TO IT! There's music to be made, bro!

[krauser2]

If I bought something as advertised, well dammit it had better be what it said it was.

Don't say one thing and sell me another. The one thing I can't stand is loop holes and shady descriptions. That frustrates me to know end.

[markophonic]

I'm looking for a body with a humbucker route.

Do want to sell it?

[Durtdog]

This has been going on for 9 days. You've gotten lots of opinions, I say it's time to make a decision (whatever it may be), take some action, and put the issue to rest.

You've got a guitar to build and a life to live.

[Rob DiStefano]

'grain filling' can mean either the wood pores are sealed and not leveled ... or the pores are filled, leveled and sealed. huge difference in both the work and cost. know exactly what yer paying for before buying.

[Bluej58]

[quote=tcarp;2214939]
the body itself is everything I could have asked for. It's perfectly proportioned, it's got an h-bucker neck rout, all parts fit as if it was a genuine Fender product, and the weight is just so right. I had originally described the grain pattern as unattractive but I had planned on a RR Coral finish so that wasn't an issue. But after mocking up the neck, control plate, bridge and pickguard, except for one area, most of the offensive grain pattern will be hidden. As a result I've re-thought an opaque color on my first partscaster since a body of this overall quality screams for a transparent finish like blond or MK white.QUOTE



I know it's more work than you want to do, but it sounds like a nice body worthy of the extra attention.
Maybe the vendor would be willing to send you some grain filler.
Or maybe he could fix it and send it back, or deal with it your self.
I say bite the bullet and when it's done and you are playing it and everyone is ogling your beautiful semi transparent light weight ash Telecaster, you will be happy, hopefully, and in time all will be forgotin
Good Luck

JD

[tcarp]

This has been going on for 9 days

Yup, sure has...but important things like Christmas and the upcoming New Year got in the way....for me and the vendor. No matter how I felt, it wasn't important enough to consume me or would it have been fair to bust his chops during the holidays. I'll make my decision this weekend once the seasonal hoopla is over.

And as always, thanks to all for advice and encouragement....and a safe and Happy New Year to everyone.

Tom

[Durtdog]

Originally Posted by tcarp

Yup, sure has...but important things like Christmas and the upcoming New Year got in the way....for me and the vendor. No matter how I felt, it wasn't important enough to consume me or would it have been fair to bust his chops during the holidays. I'll make my decision this weekend once the seasonal hoopla is over.

And as always, thanks to all for advice and encouragement....and a safe and Happy New Year to everyone.

Tom

Re-read my post, and I didn't mean it to be so snippy, apologies if it sounded that way.

Good luck to you!

[sprokett]

I would like to applaud you for being gentleman enough to be considerate of the vendor and his family over the holidays. The vendor would most likely want to hear your concerns over the body. As stated earlier though, keep the emotion out of it. most reputable vendors will do their best to make it right. Happy customers keep vendors in business. Most likely it was a mistake or miscommunication that can be easily resolved.

[Phaze]

Perhaps this is the case:

Grain filler is more accurately called "pore filler", meant to fill the open pores in wood surfaces. Woods like Oak and Mahogany demand this if you want a glassy finish. On woods like Pine, Poplar, Alder, not so much. However, what you are describing:

"I get the impression that the body would look and feel like a rake was dragged across the surface.",

sounds more like "grain" irregularity rather than open pores. The grain of wood, which is highly pronounced in Swamp Ash, is constituted of "growth rings" as well as heartwood and sapwood. A cut straight across a tree trunk reveals these "rings." Winter growth rings are harder and denser and usually darker, than the quicker growing summer rings, which are softer, less dense and usually lighter in color.

Then, there is heartwood and sapwood. Sapwood being the porous outer area of the trunk which, of course caries the tree sap to the branches. Heartwood is the denser darker core of the tree, once former sapwood.

Now depending on how a log is cut (a whole 'nother thread!) this is how different types grain patterns occur-variations of hard and soft, dense and porous, dark and light.

Now depending on local humidity changes, the differences in density between these four types of wood cells, and how well the wood is sealed, generally speaking, the summer growth bands and the sapwood will shrink and swell far more than the heartwood/ winter bands. Shrinking of the softer areas of the grain due to lower humidity, will often leave the harder areas higher and more pronounced, in a "ripply" fashion.

No amount of grain/pore filler will prevent this. The entire piece of wood must be totally sealed to rapid moisture absorption once the surface has been leveled (i.e. sanded/planed flat) (and pore-filled).

Knot to mention knots!

Did this help?

[tcarp]

For what it's worth it appears as though a resolution has been reached.

We both had different perspectives....I expected a "sealed and grain filled body ready for color" as advertised, the vendor insisted that most bodies still need additional prep work after leaving the mill. That didn't sit well with me and I took a stand on principle.

Despite the custom neck pup rout, the vendor has agreed to exchange the body. I feel that is very fair and I've elected to go for an Alder body of similar weight with the same pup rout. I also asked for as clear a wood grade as possible. If the new body has a somewhat of a decent grain I'll have the option of a trans finish....if not, it'll be an opaque color as originally planned. While the Alder will still need to be sealed, I won't have to deal with labor intensive grainfilling and sanding, which was the whole purpose of buying a body that was "ready for color."

If the new body meets or exceeds expectations, this vendor will have won over a customer and should this one-time partscaster turn into Tele obsession, I won't hesitate to do business with him.

Thanks again for all your points of view.

Tom

I