Trussrod-less neck?

[chrisdUK]

I've been thinking about this, and it seems to have a lot of advantages:

* It's cheaper - I don't have to buy a rod or separate fingerboard
* It's easier - I don't have a router (of any sort) so I'd have to do it by hand
* It probably sounds better

I also have some physics/logic/common sense to back up why I think it would be strong enough:

* Although there is a lot of string tension, most of the force is compressing the wood, as the strings run parallel to the neck. Therefore, very little force is actually pulling it forward.
* The headstock on (almost) all guitars, although it doesn't have any reinforcement, and is the weakest part of the guitar, doesn't bend even though a lot more of the force from the strings is pulling it forward. Therefore, if a 20mm thick bit of headstock can handle the tension, a 25mm neck can easily.

All of that is well and good, but basically my question is, has anyone used one, and if so, what's it like in real life?

Cheers,
Chris.

[RodeoTex]

I don't know but I've just come into some 1.25" maple and have been thinking about doing one.
My biggest worry is about the relief in the fretboard, i.e. how much to put in.

Maybe someone will chime in and give us some particulars.

[StraightNeck]

Check out Gil Yaron building threads.One of them with a trussrodless!? neck.Much interesting.

[newtwanger]

A respectful reality check please.

If you are doing it because you don't have tools to do it, then you likely don't have tools to make a proper neck anyways, so rule that reason out.

If you are doing it to save the $8.00-$15.00 a truss rod costs, then you have no idea what the tools you will need to build a correctly cut, radiused, and shaped neck costs. Nevermind installing frets correctly, trimming, leveling and polishing.

If you are doing it because you think it sounds better....OK tone is subjective.

Once you finish it and string it up, what if you have too much relief? Your relief will be controlled uniquely by string choice. If .08-.038s still leave you with too much relief, you are screwed.

Now, that being said, if you are doing it because ...well ... you just want too.
That's perfectly cool. Try it, it'll cost very little, you'll learn alot and even with basic tools and good skills you'll likely come out with something usable.
(and your friends will tell you it's great because they are your friends :) )

Gil Yaron (preeb) explains things very well. Pay close attention to how he explains the impact fret installation has on relief. It's also easy to screw up the neck radiusing, look at ScatterLee's build threads for his way to avoid that.

This...

Became this...

That is temporarily sitting on this body...


It definitely sounds different without the truss rod, weighs a lot less too.

Give it a try! Best of luck and positive vibes set your way.

[RodeoTex]

Thanks Newtwanger. I really like the snakehead and may have to make one of those too.

It isn't for lack of tools (lordy knows I've got a hay barn full), and it isn't for the purpose of chasing tone either, it just seems intriguing to me. Leo thought they didn't need a trussrod at first and was batted down by popular demand. I'd kind of like to do it just to vendicate Leo if nothing else.

I also want to apologize to ChrisdUK for walking all over his original thread but I kinda got caught up in the moment.

[Big Mike Simpson]

I have built seneral necks without an adjustable truss rod but I do epoxy a piece of steel square tubing in a closed ended channel and glue a fretboard over it. No problems with any of them so far...

[originalmatthew]

My old silvertone flat-tops don't have truss rods. One is a 1957 and the neck is still dead on where it should be. That said, I agree with newtwanger that if your relief is off, theres no way to change it other than to pull the frets and start sanding. PITA and lots of work.

[iansmitchell]

Well neck angle could be used to compensate for some neck issues, and proper fret compensation others, but I personally would go with a more stable wood than maple. I've always thought a solid 1-piece ebony neck would be awesome.

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by Big Mike Simpson

I have built seneral necks without an adjustable truss rod but I do epoxy a piece of steel square tubing in a closed ended channel and glue a fretboard over it. No problems with any of them so far...

My harmony archtone has a "steel reinforced neck".
Similar process, if I understand it.
It's also solid birch with a maple fretbaord dyed to look like rosewood.
Intriguingly well sounding, playing, and durable guitar...

[chrisdUK]

Thanks for all your replies. Does anyone know if he made the neck any thicker than usual for the esquire? It doesn't say on the build thread.

The wood I've got for the neck is a massive plank from the back of an upright piano (so it's some sort of tonewood, but I'm not sure what it is). I do know it's really hard work to cut though.

Thanks.

[Joefaity]

Just be careful to use well seasoned wood. With no truss you couldn't correct any neck bows.

[Skip Ellis]

Thought I'd jump in here with a couple thoughts:

1.) Bob Benedetto (who I have the ultimate respect for as a builder) is of the opinion that neck relief is not necessary and a perfectly straight neck is more desirable.

2.) Remember that, when Leo designed his early necks, most, if not all, players used heavy strings as that was pretty much all that was available. It was very possible that the greater tension of these large gauged strings would, indeed, have bowed the un-reinforced neck, hence the need for some way to get rid of the bow.

3.) I have built quite a few maple 5 string banjo necks over the years and reinforced them with 1/4" diameter steel rods glued in a slot under the fingerboard. With normal banjo strings, which are not much lower in tension than today's 9-42 or 10-46 sets, I have seen absolutely no evidence of these necks bowing and all of them have been built with no relief.

4.) I played a '68 Telecaster for well over 30 years using the above mentioned string sets and the neck was never adjusted and there was never any bow or relief. The only thing that was ever done was dress the frets when they became grooved.

Just some first hand observations for what they're worth.

I'm also in the process of building a truss rod-less neck out of curly maple with a glued in skunk stripe of ebony. I expect it to work just fine with 10-46 strings.

[iansmitchell]

Originally Posted by chrisdUK

Thanks for all your replies. Does anyone know if he made the neck any thicker than usual for the esquire? It doesn't say on the build thread.

The wood I've got for the neck is a massive plank from the back of an upright piano (so it's some sort of tonewood, but I'm not sure what it is). I do know it's really hard work to cut though.

Thanks.

Old uprights generally used a hardwood frame(mahogany, oak, poplar, maple, ash, and sometimes alder)
Softwood top (hemlock, spruce, heart pine)
Heavier hardwood for the most structural parts.
What yours is probably is either red oak, hard maple, or white ash. Baseball bats have been made of each of these and they're all very hard woods, especially as old as they are.

[mcgeorgerl]

I believe Loar/Gibson used to make several instruments with a large "V" cut through the neck and a matching "V" cut from white oak was glued in. Of course they all had a separate fretboard glued atop the joint.

Many modern luthiers use carbon fiber inserts (available from Luthier Merchantile and maybe Stew-Mac).

I've also seen a reinforcment rod made from aircraft grade aluminum for a 5 string banjo.

[Runn3r]

Originally Posted by chrisdUK

I've been thinking about this, and it seems to have a lot of advantages:

* It's cheaper - I don't have to buy a rod or separate fingerboard
* It's easier - I don't have a router (of any sort) so I'd have to do it by hand
* It probably sounds better

I also have some physics/logic/common sense to back up why I think it would be strong enough:

* Although there is a lot of string tension, most of the force is compressing the wood, as the strings run parallel to the neck. Therefore, very little force is actually pulling it forward.
* The headstock on (almost) all guitars, although it doesn't have any reinforcement, and is the weakest part of the guitar, doesn't bend even though a lot more of the force from the strings is pulling it forward. Therefore, if a 20mm thick bit of headstock can handle the tension, a 25mm neck can easily.

All of that is well and good, but basically my question is, has anyone used one, and if so, what's it like in real life?

Cheers,
Chris.

...yup i made a few truss rod less necks ...but all of them are genuine hard dalbergias (rosewood)

...i use strings of gauge 10's and tune to standard pitch/tuning

...all me necks are flat fingerbaord surface and absolutely straight (with a lil fall away at the last few frets) and they havnt moved from the straight under tension and atmospheric changes (we are going into summer from winter here in aus)

...there IS a 'tonal difference' between a neck with a truss rod and one without

...earlier in year i made a cocobolo neck with a truss rod



and tht can be directly compared to this one i recently made without



both are 25.5" scale...bolt ons...dimensionally similar but not exact



i would not however use ANY wood to make a truss rodless neck ...and i would not use maple or any wood tht is HYGROSCOPIC in an extreme way

[chrisdUK]

Thanks again. If I did make it without one would it be worth cutting the blank in half and flipping one side round, then regluing, to keep it stable? Or would it just waste my time?

Cheers.

[Joefaity]

Before you give up take a look at the 1950 double esquire thread on the main page. He builds a MAPLE trussrodless neck with great results!

[Runn3r]

Originally Posted by chrisdUK

Thanks again. If I did make it without one would it be worth cutting the blank in half and flipping one side round, then regluing, to keep it stable? Or would it just waste my time?

Cheers.

...i would expect this construction method to be much stiffer and more stable (relative to a typical flatsawn neck blank) espc if it is 3 pieces orientated so tht they counteract each other (grainwise) and so tht the entire neck is quartersawn across the entire width of the neck

...no...it would not be a waste of time

...a few guitar companies make necks this way but they still put truss rod in to guarantee minimal problems down the road

[Scott S]

Those early Fender necks were about 1" thick, too -- keep that in mind.

[lupowitz]

the original Steinberger guitars and basses (the all composite GL , L , and XL series, plus the wood bodied composite necked GM & GR series) were all lacked a trussrod.


After klein electrics were dropped the Steinberger necks they started to sell their modells with a solid trussrod-less rosewood neck, just like Bill Frisell's:

[Nick JD]

Wood is not always stable. Truss rods are insurance policies, not necessities.

[mike shaw]

All of my guitars require a light tightening of the truss rod to keep 'em straight. Is it possible to keep a truss rod-less neck straight? IMO, yes, but I don't think you can construct it in the same manner as a conventional neck. I'd guess you'd have to inlay some carbon rods or something to add stiffnes, or use a three piece neck and alternate grain direction or maybe use oversized fret tangs or undersized slots to control natural relief. Probably need to use quarter sawn wood etc. For me, I'd keep the truss rod!