Fretting technique

[Rob DiStefano]

one trick to hammering is sizing the fret tang to the board's fret slot. you should always do a test fit at the last fret ... using a fret crimper is a quick and viable way to make sure slightly undersized tangs fit tightly into fret slots.

i'll say it again - start fretting with a hammer, you will really learn a lot of very invaluable skills.

[Rob DiStefano]

completing a fret job without the need for an L&C is dependent on the player's requirements. some folks just don't require or want the lowest action a neck can offer. level frets = lowest action.

imo, all fret jobs require an L&C and that's part of my fretting process.

in order to achieve "perfect" fretting results, without the need for leveling, you must meet two essential requirements ... 1) the fingerboard must be perfectly radiused and straight - this is literally an impossibility due to the nature of most necks and fingerboards (wood), 2) frets must be seated with exacting pressure (top or side) so as to control fret tang and crown depth (another near impossibility when dealing with wood). i'm talking about thousandths of an inch in variance.

add to all this the fact that the act of hammering, pressing or pushing barbed fret tangs into fingerboard fret slots adds some measure of *compression* to the fingerboard wood. this compression acts like a truss rod and bows the neck up. one can care for this by putting in a little neck relief before fretting.

if the fret tangs have a near loose fit to the fret slots, and are held by a radiused caul to the fretboard, then cya super glued, there is little to no compression. not my way of fretting.

[preeb]

I started reading this thread, and found some of the discussion dizzying, and unnecessarily complicated.

I found it difficult to get even frets when hammering them in and I didn't have a drill press, so I took the brass inserts for StewMac's pressing arbor and made myself a tool. I got pretty good results with this method.

Pressing gives much more consistent results than hammering, even if you are a good hammerer. The problem is that each fret must be seated with an equal amount of force. They told me at the Martin factory that they were working on designing a gang press that would apply an exactly equal amount of force on each fret. (Seems like the perfect application for hydraulics.)

I'm trying to cook up an idea for an arbor that would let me operate it with my torque wrench to keep the force equal.

As for eliminating the need to level frets... I've seen some pretty good fretwork, and I've seen installations that minimize the need to level & crown the frets, but I have never seen an installation that did not require some amount of leveling.

Just to clarify the issue, sometimes there's a need for a little leveling but usually there's no need.
BTW, How many good sideways installations have you seen that needed leveling?
It's a combination of a perfectly true fingerboard with a correct sideways installation that will eliminate the need for leveling, and the only way to get there, TMHO, is by using a swing arm for radiusing.

I would also have to disagree on the "equal amount of force" solution...
When pressing there's always a little up-bounce caused by the flexibility of the wood, and thats the reason for the aggressive power used to press the fret in. I can't imagine an even amount of bouncing that can be fixed with an even amount of force. After all, wood is an inconsistent material with inconsistent density along the neck.

Remark:
This is only my own opinion and I might be totally wrong.
I respect all other opinions.
I do not wish to argue.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by preeb

Just to clarify the issue, sometimes there's a need for a little leveling but usually there's no need.

Not from my vantage point of 40+ years of fretting.

BTW, How many good sideways installations have you seen that needed leveling?

None, if you wish to achieve the lowest action a fretted neck can render.

It's a combination of a perfectly true fingerboard with a correct sideways installation that will eliminate the need for leveling,

If there's one truth I've learned over my fretting decades it's - just as there is no way to perfectly tune a fretted instrument, the "perfectly true fingerboard" is like finding a needle in a haystack.

and the only way to get there, TMHO, is by using a swing arm for radiusing.

There will always be concerned issues whence forcing a barbed metal fret tang into wood, particularly when there's a tight fit into hard wood.

I would also have to disagree on the "equal amount of force" solution...

That's not a solution, that's a problem that needs constant attention. Each fret needs to be installed so that the bottom of the fret crown sits on top of the fretboard as uniformly as possible - not lightly over the fretboard and not pressed INTO the fretboard ... and that IS an impossibility, no matter whether hammering, pressing or sideways pushing. Again, this is a matter of a thousandth of an inch or so, give or take. Thousandths of an inch means the frets just ain't level. That's a fact, jack.

When pressing there's always a little up-bounce caused by the flexibility of the wood, and thats the reason for the aggressive power used to press the fret in. I can't imagine an even amount of bouncing that can be fixed with an even amount of force. After all, wood is an inconsistent material with inconsistent density along the neck.

You're correct, and that resilience occurs no matter what fretting method is employed IF there is a friction fit between the fret tang and the fret slot. This is why sizing the fret slot, and chamfering the fret slot top, is so important - and that must be done regardless if the frets are pressed or pushed in. This does NOT occur if there is a "loose" fit between the fret tang/barbs and a wider fret slot and liberal amounts of glue are used - thus, this no or little fretboard compression and no resulting up bow of the neck.

Remark:
This is only my own opinion and I might be totally wrong.
I respect all other opinions.
I do not wish to argue.

Remark:

These are my own opinions borne out of experience, and I'm not at all wrong.

I do respect your opinions, preeb, but you do need to look at the big picture concerning fretting and realize that sideways fretting is not the only viable way to fret, and that it has its place and its issues, just as all fretting methods do. There ain't no free lunch.

If you feel a need to defend your choice of fretting as a more viable choice than hammering or pressing, that's arguing, and there's nothing wrong with a healthy debate as one sword sharpens the other.

[preeb]

Thank you Rob for your input.
If you noticed the "quote" above my reply... I kind of referred the questions to eryque... but I love your replies too of course since I got used to your unique style (-;

We have no debate... I have nothing against hammering and fret leveling... as long as the final result is a great playing neck.

I made a big step forward when I moved from hammering and pressing (which I used for only 25 years) to sideways installation. I wish to tell everybody about it and I'm sure there's a lot to gain from this method. I'm not saying it's better... I'm saying it's better for me!!!

A few facts:
I do achieve a perfectly true neck radius on the swing arm jig all the time
I don't see any frets bouncing up and down on my sideway installations (obviously...).
I hardly ever do fret leveling any more - even for low action players.

So.... I guess I might be doing things slightly different than you even though I don't have 40 years of experience or your talent which I admire deeply.

It's just me with my little sideways jig and a few other forum members trying to learn a new method. I assure you... it doesn't put the traditional methods in any danger (-;

[Bill Scheltema]

Its nice to see we are still working this thread.

But here is another thought/question/observation.

I read somewhere that the trussrod when loaded/tightnened in the neck actually compresses the neck some.
So then logically the scale length would then shorten correct?
I guess that all the painstaking time spent to have perfectly positioned frets though necessary will be affected by the compression of both strings & trussrod.

About this fretting stuff.
I am no expert and talking to a few builders around here are intrigued by the sideways install in a way that they thought it was out of bounds or un-attainable or it was never an alternative.
For me, the more I practice it the more I like it.
I use a radius jig on my router table that trues up the fingerboard at the same time.

It would be nice to here from anyone else who has given this method a try besides me, both newbie and veteran.

Bill

[preeb]

It's compressed inside the neck at the end of the TR nut channel... it's does not affect the length. If compressed too much as a result of over tightening the TR it might press the fingerboard upward and even crack it!
This is one of the reasons why it's so important to use real hard rock maple for single action TR necks.

[scubadoo]

I'd just like to thank all for the discussion, especially Rob and Preeb. For someone relatively new to fretting it's great to get all these opinions/experiences.

Still sticking with the hammer though

[jwells393]

So then logically the scale length would then shorten correct?

Incorrect ......... any compression will be limited to the area of the anchor and the truss rod nut. The area of the compression would be 0.110 sq. in. at each end in the case of a one piece heel adjust neck. That compression will also be limited to a very small amount if the neck is hard maple as noted by preeb.

[Bill Scheltema]

Thanks for the info.

Bill

[ehawley]

I guess the best way to describe it is....take a 2 foot straight line. Curve it into a circle so the ends meet. It's still a 2 foot long "thing" ( line, circumference, what ever!)
All you are doing is curving the neck. It is still the same length.
Cheers
Ed

Great thread by the way!

[Bill Scheltema]

Thanks Ed,

All you guys have so much add to this great thread.
I am learning an awful lot here.

Bill

[Nick JD]

If you bend something with a thickness, the outside of the material undergoes tension, the inside of the curve undergoes compression.

The radius of curvature of a guitar neck with a twist of the rod would be barely measurable ... but there would be a shortening in the maple and a lengthening in the rosewood when the truss rod is tightened.

Sandwich construction techniques offer magnitudes of extra stiffness with tiny increases in weight. Same principle. Compression and Tension.

[Bill Scheltema]

Again, thank you for that info.
I am sure if I talked to my engineer at work he would give a detailed explanation too, but, wood is wood.

Bill

[Bill Scheltema]

There was a meeting of luthiers last night on my area, about 8 builders attened.
One guy owned 24 acoustics.
I had sent a shot of my neck jig and was invited to do a show and tell.
I brought my first neck too!

Being a newbie I was intimidated by the experience that surrounded me.

They really liked the jig, got lots of questions on it.
My neck got passed around and one of the guys said it was way better than anything you would get off the rack in most music stores, his comment was that it doesn't even look like it will need fret leveling.

When I told them it was a side fret install, they were real interested, so I gave them a rundown of my technique.

Anyways I think I made a good first impression.

Bill

[pavel]

I finally got around to try the sideways technique, I'm very excited with the results. I haven't tried pressing frets yet but compared to hammering (mind you, I am definitely pretty green at this) I get pretty dramatic differences, in particular:

- frets are consistently sitting dead flat on the fingerboard
- it is much harder to pull them of the fingerboard with nippers

I'm using a simple tool made from a radius block. I cut slice off the block and sanded it down to the thickness of the fretwire and sandwiched it between two wider slices of the radiusing block


The right side of the tool is made to just fit between the 20th and 21st fret.



A piece of acrylic at the end of the tool for the fret end to rest against.

[pavel]

Fretwire is bent to the right radius 9 - 9.5




I cut the fretwire at an angle to give the fret end a nice slanted surface that will not dig in into the fingerboard



... filing the fret end/tang to make things go nice and smooth and not chew out the fret slot/fingerboard:

[pavel]

Slot the fret into the tool



Press about 1/4 of the fret tang into the slot.



And drive the fret in. I press down on the tool pretty hard with my thumb while driving the tool in with my other hand with even pressure (sorry, couldn't take a picture of that since I needed one hand to hold my phone camera). This takes a quite a bit of force but I didn't need to use a hammer to tap the tool in and it seems better to use an even/consistent pressure.



There we go, frets nice and uniform, after nipping of and filing the ends.



One other trick that helped -- I cut the fretwire so that little under 1/4" sticks out at the front of the tool -- that way as you are pressing the fret in you can see it making it's way into the slot and make sure it's not digging in. This is obviously a little wasteful, you end up nipping off quite a bit of fretwire but it beats having the fretwire digging into the fingerboard. I had this happen a couple times with my first attempts on a practice neck, this trick along with cutting the fretwire at an angle and sharpening the tang/fret end with a file seems to eliminate that issue.

I haven't tried using a pulley system or anything like that yet, I'd imagine this would be a necessity for folks installing frets all day long because I get pretty worn out just installing a single neck.

I may try pressing in frets with a fret press yet but I'm very much sold on this technique and extremely happy with the results.

[Rob DiStefano]

pulling out pushed in frets is a no-no as the board *will* chip - these frets need to be pushed out.

be aware that sliding in frets allows for less tweaking than hammering and pressing - this is one strong reason why the majority of luthiers will hammer or press.

it's worth mentioning again - if yer a newbie to fretting, learn hammering and pressing in frets, it will give you an insight to the short comings of each method (definitely including the slide in method).

[jkingma]

I agree with Rob. On my first couple necks I pressed in the frets and had a hard time getting them all seated properly. So then around the 3rd or 4th neck I started hammering and I now get consistantly better results this way. And I think I can do it quicker with a hammer as well.

[pavel]

Originally Posted by Rob DiStefano

pulling out pushed in frets is a no-no as the board *will* chip - these frets need to be pushed out.

Right. The point I was making was that, comparing two otherwise identical frets (same fretwire, same fret slot), one hammered in, one sideways installed, the latter was sitting much tighter and was much harder to pry out than the one I hammered in and, based on this (simplistic) test, I'm guessing the sideways installed fret will stay seated better.

This is just my observation of a junior guitar builder.

[Sawarow]

I've had some good sucess with the slide in technique Preeb and Pavel are using. The necks have required very little levelling. One thing I'd like to add is that I file front end of the frets to resemble ski tips to keep from the fret ends digging into the fret board. The other thing I do is put masking tape on the fret board between the frets so the tool doesn't leave marks in the fretboard if it happens to touch it while sliding in the frets.

[joe desperado]

I will say, the "slide method" makes great sense. I just put together an arbor press version simular to StewMac. I will say, I can get excellent results with very repeatable outcome everytime from this method. Because the cauls are radiused perfect, I believe I am getting the same results with my Arbor as you can the slide method. I will admit, when I am done with the neck (I use titebond glue in the slots), I use a radius clamping caul to ensure my fret radius are perfect while the glue dries. I do not "glue" my frets in...but use glue to fill in the gaps under the tang of the frets so that there is no voids in the fret slots. Since switching to the press system, I have almost eliminated all fret dressing after the neck is completely. Its not 100% perfect, but darn near.

I think the "slide" and the press both can have extremely close results. The main idea of the slide IMHO is that the frets can never lift upward when the neck adjusts to heat/humidity etc. But I have yet to see that happen on one of my necks with titebond glue yet. I have been using the titebond glue for about 10 years now on my frets and re-frets. The fret press system is just a few months old in my shop. I think I have done about 12-15 necks so far with my press. It really reduces (eliminates?) fret dress drastically due to it pusing down the fret consistantly over the board at the perfect radius.

Right now I think both methods have its merrits. Far better than hammering (which I did for the past 25 years). I have not had an issue with the hammer damaging the frets at all, but you can drive the frets too deep in one small area if you hit it harder than another. The fret press is consistant as long as you use aproximately the same force each time. You will feel the fret stop when the crown hits the board.

Joe

[pavel]

How do you best support the neck when pressing in the frets in the transition area between the radiused neck part and the flat heel part? Do you just take the neck off the neck caul for the last few frets?

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally Posted by pavel

... I'm guessing the sideways installed fret will stay seated better....

yes, because the barbs cut a channel into the sides of the fretboard's fret slot.

[Rob DiStefano]

the realistic problem with slide fretting is that once you slide in the fret, it's in. "but that's good" you say?

it's only good if all the frets are uniformly seated to kiss the fretboard top and not sit above or under. once installed, there is little latitude for tweaking because the frets are locked into the fret channel sides. you could try tapping down frets that sit up, but that defeats the whole concept of slide fretting and the wood compression may make that near impossible without deforming something (fret/wood). frets slid in that score the fretboard now become the lowest fret that all other frets must measure down to, unfortunately. you haven't slid in a low fret, yet? (emphasis on "yet"). well, you could pry up a low fret with a fret puller, but that could make the board look nasty ...

tapping or pressing in frets allows groups of 2 to 4 frets to be "chased" down with a hammer and chase, allowing for the operator to tweak the uniformity of the installed fret heights ... the fretter just has more control, imo.

[68thinline]

I'm so glad this thread just got bumped, I'll be doing my first fret job this week...

...with a hammer.

I'm certainly intrigued by the sideways method, but it's important to me that I learn the traditional methods first.

If all goes well, I'll be thinking about a refret on my 1970 Guild.

[Heritage]

Just wanted to offer my thanks to each of the participants within this thread. The advocates of each school of thought have done a real bang up job of clearly illustrating and thoroughly arguing the benefits of their respective techniques. I gather that the thread has been a bit tiresome for some of the old hands, but to a beginner (and newcomer to this forum) this thread has been extraordinarily informative.

While I have yet to commit myself to any of the three techniques, when the time comes to make that decision, I’ll be in a position to make an informed choice and be fully aware of the various benefits and risks of each technique.

Again, thank you all for the invaluable thread.

[Mojotron]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Just wanted to offer my thanks to each of the participants within this thread. The advocates of each school of thought have done a real bang up job of clearly illustrating and thoroughly arguing the benefits of their respective techniques. I gather that the thread has been a bit tiresome for some of the old hands, but to a beginner (and newcomer to this forum) this thread has been extraordinarily informative.

While I have yet to commit myself to any of the three techniques, when the time comes to make that decision, I’ll be in a position to make an informed choice and be fully aware of the various benefits and risks of each technique.

Again, thank you all for the invaluable thread.

Me too guys!!! I am just about there and this is too cool for words, thanks for having this discussion and for offering all of the advice and pictures - that a great help!

[nanooman]

First off, thank you all for the entertainment and valuable lessons of many kinds.

My partner in crime and I are getting ready to finish our guitar projects. You could say we barely got started before education and careers interrupted. As silly as it sounds to say that I hope for my first guitars to come out perfect, well, I set my hopes high. I bought extremely nice wood and don't want to be too disappointed in the end. I spend countless hours reading threads like these to absorb as much up front information from guys like you: experienced ones. I know that reading only does so much. Watching football sure as h=ll won't make me a better athlete. However, it's going to help me make decisions and take certain steps to set myself up for success in the beginning. All that said, I'm most likely going to get a blank to practice on.

Since I've opted for a compound radius (I found a really cool router based jig that I will post pictures of on a separate thread when it's done) I am going to go for the sideways installation of my frets. I know it makes sense to start out with a hammer and move forward from there, but I really don't want to take chances on these necks. The thing that I really would love for someone here to provide are some instructions or at least a link to some instructions on leveling compound radiused frets. If I were going to use a plain 9.5" radius, I'd hammer away. As long as you have a radius block, leveling is mostly straight forward. Not so much with a compound radius. Also, using a fret press for a compound radius would theoretically imply one has a different caul per fret, since each fret has a unique radius. I think this thread could continue on. What do you say?

nanooman

[Rob DiStefano]

best of luck to you and yer bud, nanooman - yer both gonna need it, for sure. i think yer both biting off lots more than y'all can chew ... hope i'm wrong, but don't think so ... even the best of budding luthiers wouldn't wanna attempt those goals of yers for their first project. realistically, think seriously about resetting yer goals .....

[stratman1966]

I agree compound sounds hard. I would just do a 9.5 radius and arbor press in the frets. Just my 2 cents.