C major

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by Jeffscreamedcorn

Sometimes! I've studied his music in depth for over 30 years, including analysis of his original manuscripts. Like Ellington, Mingus' music was often meticulously notated, and changed in performance.

Were all (or most) of his compositions scored or were some notated in lead sheet style? Were his chords written out or were they represented by chord symbols? I don't mean to make work for you or ask to you generalize if that's difficult. Just curious about his writing practices.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by StuH

I really like that chord bandit, not knowing any music theory I always called it a C add G.
.

I wonder if "C over G" or C/G is what he is saying. I think of added note chords as triads with an extra note added, such as C add D. (Or C add 9?) Since G is already member of the C chord, I wonder about adding G.

[StuH]

Thanks Larry actually you made moucho sense to me here as I'm in the process of learning a bit of theory. I would have to agree with you but I don't understumble your other posts, not yet anyway.

[jhundt]

From a music theory standpoint, putting the G in the bass of a C chord means you have put the wrong note in the bass. I recommend against it, because it changes the meaning of the chord.

one of the reasons that people who play instruments like the oboe don't consider guitarists to be musicians...they choose not to learn anything about music.

Joe-Bob, these are very interesting statements. You must be extremeley well-versed in music theory. Is it possible for you to know "the meaning" of another person's chord through studying music theory?

Which oboe-playing persons are you referring to?

Which guitar players are these oboe-playing persons referring to? South African jazz players? European classic guitarists? American Blues guitarists? Texas country players? Death-metal Scandinavians?

Your statements made me laugh. I'm glad music is created by people who are able to see beyond the rule book.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by jhundt

Joe-Bob, these are very interesting statements.

Hey Joe-Bob, you're on your own with this one. As a fellow theorist, I'd like to help you out, but you really did come across as a rulemaker. That gives theory a bad name. Theory is great for explaining why people hear things the way they do and how patterns are related. But this right and wrong stuff is not what theory students should take away from their studies.

[fakeocaster]

Context is important too.If you play this chord in the key of C it will definitly sound like a I chord rather than a suspension over a V.


I still believe that its not a big deal

[OutlawSteph1975]

Originally Posted by Jeffscreamedcorn

I often grab the 5th on the 1st string when I want a bit of extra harmonic instability and/or ambiguity.

--3-----
--1-----
--------
--2-----
--3-----
--X------

I like playing open C like this for bluegrass and country. Turning the high III into a high V does make it sound less major even though you've still got an E note in there.

Take it Easy would be a good example with C played just like Jeff has above, and G played like this:

---3---
---3---
-------
-------
---2---
---3---

So you could probably use the C add G in that progression as well. It's annoying to play along with the original recording because it's slightly out of tune, so I'm not positive how the Eagles did it, but it sounds good to me.

[blacklinefish]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I've always added the fifth on the low E string like this:

--------
--1----- first finger
--------
--2----- second
--3----- fourth
--3------ third

Nice G6add13 you have there! Where's the fifth?

Just kidding. I agree with many of the others that you should use caution with an inversion like that. I would never play it with a keyboardist or a bass player present, for example.

I must confess that I prefer the third in the bass inversion over this one. Also, I tend to play voicings with less strings when I do something like that, because the close-ness can get distracting. As a rule of thumb, if the bass has anything other than the root or third in it, I want at least a muted string between the bass note and the rest of the chord.

For example, I do not mind the close sound of this first-inversion (C/E) voicing:
--X-----
--5----- first finger
--5----- first finger
--5----- first finger
--7----- third finger
--X-----

Also, for a seventh in the bass, check out how I like to play a C/Bb:
--X-----
--5----- first finger
--5----- first finger
--5----- first finger
--X-----
--6----- second finger

Note that I have a muted 5th string between that low flat seventh and the C. To me, anything closer is just clashy.

If I see a song with C/G in it, I have learned to ignore it, because I cannot find a voicing that I agree with. I assume the keyboard has it covered.

--gh

[Bandit]

Wow! I didn't know if this would get any replies.

I thought of it because I remember the movie "Walk The Line"
the opening shot is Luther Perkins playing a C june-jick thing and moving his third finger from the root of the C to the fifth.

I just find it easier the play this style of music by using four fingers then you don't have to move your finger to play the C chord.

[Mickey]

I'm just getting around to experimenting with these kinds of chords now. One of my favorite examples is from a great song ("More") from a very strange 1960s movie ("Mondo Cane"). I think Bobby Darin had a hit with it.

The chorus goes:

Em
More than you'll

Em#7/D#
ever know, my

Em7/D
arms long to

Em6/C#
hold you so.

Basically a bass note walking down over a Em chord: 8, 7#, 7, 6#
I guess it does change the meaning of the Em chord. It does give it a kind of direction it would lack over four bars. I have no idea how it would sound for an electric guitar to play this in a band, it does sound cool in the living room!

[RodeoTex]

I know nothing about theory but I've been using that version of a C chord in 'Wildwood Flower' forever. I think Mother Maybelle did too.
Sometimes ignorance IS bliss.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by klasaine

A lot of times I "will" put a G in the bass of a C major (6/4) chord if the next change is an F. I might play that F with an A in the bass (6). and maybe if G follows all that - G/B. I also tend to do it in the middle or upper octaves of the instrument where I know that it usually won't get in the way.

Ken, the F with A... a question... is that also a Dm7? and what of the Dm7 if you add G? When I play Gentle on My Mind (probably incorrectly) I have frequently wondered if I am playing F with A or F/A or Dm7 in the descending part from Dm, to whatever you call the next chord (D A C# F) then the Dm7, then add G... This year I'm gonna learn the names of some stuff I've been playing a long time....

[DJG105]

i would never go so far as saying a G in the bass of a C chord is the wrong note- It's still a chord tone, and it's your right to arrange whatever pieces you play however you please. using inversions are a lot of fun!

consider the fact that if you're playing with a bass player (who's playing the root, for example)- then in the big picture- G isn't actually in the bass anymore, the bass player's root (provided he's playing the C below your G, that is) is now in the bass.

that said, using a 5th in the bass isn't necessarily always going to be better or worse- in some situations it might sound better than others, depends on the most natural motion of the bass for the chord progression, but if your bass player is covering that ground, you really are free to play whatever upper partials of the chord you feel sound right, in whatever arrangement/inversion you please, it's up to your interpretation- at least that's what i like to think! if it sounds good, play it!

oh, and getbent- putting an A in the bass of a F chord doesn't make it a Dm7, though the only difference between an F and a Dm7 is the D. add a D (the 6th of F) into your F chord and it can be considered an inverted Dm7. an F6 is an inverted Dm.

just some of my thoughts, YMMV.

[Larry F]

Until Ken hops in, here are some observations. Wait, how do we know he is Ken? The F major chord is F A C and the Dm7 chord is D F A C. F/A means an F chord with A in the bass. I would hesitate to call that Dm7 for two reaons: 1) A Dm7 would usually have the note D present; 2) the fifth of the Dm7 chord, which is the note A, is not sounded that often in the bass. If you add G, then you have three interpretations: 1) G11, spelled G B D F A C, where B is missing; 2) Dm11, spelled D F A C E G with the 9th missing; 3) Dm7 with sus4 (the note G) that resolved down to the note F. My ears favor this last interpretation. When you have a 4, you can call it an 11th, implying that the lower chord members are present (root, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11). This interpretation is more common in jazz. In classical, we lean to the suspended 4th interpretation. Here, the 4th replaces the 3, and is usually followed by a step down to the 3rd. It is a very common chord pattern in classical music.

I can elaborate the classical point of view. According to the view, chords and notes are interpretated on triads (and seventh chords, but usually only on V or maybe ii; never I or IV). Non-triadic notes that sound when a given chord is played tend to be interpreted as diatonic passing tones, suspensions, or neighbors. Here are some examples:

In the key of C major on a G chord:

1. D C B. The note C is a diatonic passing tone.

2. B C B. The note C is an upper neighboring tone.

3. B A B. The note A is a lower neighbor.

5. C chord with C sounding. Then a G chord is played with C continuing to hold. The note B is not sounding--only G D C. Then the note C resolves down to B. That is a classic suspension. It has three phases: 1. consonant preparation, where is a consonant interval against the C chord: 2. dissonance, where C clashes with the the G below (forming the interval of a fourth, which is dissonant in the this context; 3. then consonant resolution, where C moves to B, which is the 3rd of the G chord.

In short, if you see patterns similar to those above, then a classical theorist would describe them as dissonances. Put another way, if the mystery note goes away while the chord is still playing, then is is probably a dissonance. But, if it still sounds throughout the life-span of the chord, then it is probably an extenstions (higher chord member from the series root 3 5 7 9 11 13). 6 sometimes replaces 13. Technically, a high extension should have the lower extension present. Thus G 13 needs G B D F D A C E. Traditions of voicing usually delete 11th (C), 9th (A), and 5th (D). Sometimes these deletions spell a chord like: F G B E = em/F. Classical theorists don't use those kinds of spellings much, since the harmonic function is far more important (meaning the G 13th, no matter how spelled, is a dominant function).

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by getbent

Ken, the F with A... a question... is that also a Dm7? and what of the Dm7 if you add G? When I play Gentle on My Mind (probably incorrectly) I have frequently wondered if I am playing F with A or F/A or Dm7 in the descending part from Dm, to whatever you call the next chord (D A C# F) then the Dm7, then add G... This year I'm gonna learn the names of some stuff I've been playing a long time....

... and probably best left to a separate thread but ..

Yes. F/A is ABSOLUTELY a Dm7 - but w/o a root. There is NO chord that doesn't have at least a few names (synonyms) and many of the really altered and extended chords could feasibly be called by several names - literally 12. But we usually decide the "name" by how they're functioning.
A Dm7 with G in the bass can just as easily be called a G7sus. If the G's in the middle or on top - Dm11 or Dm7sus4. Just to make it clear on how complicated it can get (pun, yes), a garden variety 'cowboy' C chord in open position is also an Am7/C. All those really complicated voicings in the Steely Dan song books like Bm7#5 ... that's really just G/B. Or, C6/9#11 ... that's a D/C. These are generally referred to as "slash" chords - triad over bass note.

[Larry F]

Originally Posted by DJG105

an F6 is an inverted Dm.

F6 = F A C D
Dm7 = D F A C

If F is in the bass it could be a root position F6 chord or a 1st inversion Dm7. Both are very common inversions. If A is in the bass, then it could be a 1st inversion F6 chord or a 2nd inversion Dm7 chord. 1st inversion chords are more common than 2nd inversion, because of the complications that arise in connectio with the 5th, as addressed in many posts above. If C is in the bass, then it could be a 2nd inversionn F6 chord or 3rd inversion Dm7 chord. Here, too, the 2nd inversion is problematic.

While chord inversion gives a little insight into chord naming, it will be the context that provides the greater clues. I recall that Chris S. gave a really good example of this a few months ago. Hey, where is Chris these days?

[klasaine]

Yeah, it's Ken. I've never been clever enough to figure out a proper "handle". Anyway, it looks like we all posted at the same time and I didn't see DJG and Larrys posts. As you can see we all said essentially the same thing.

Because I 'usually' play with keyboard players, I rarely play the root in the bottom of my voicings. I tend to voice triads, major or minor 5-3-5 or 5-1-3-5 or 3-1-5 or even just 3-1 or 3-5 diads. Seventh chords, 5-7-3 or 5-7-1 or 7-3, that pretty much says it all on a dominant chord. If I'm the only guitar player, that's another story.

[Joe-Bob]

I know that I'm one of the few people who thinks that musicians should actually know something about music, and it is disappointing to see how many guitar players stubbornly, even angrily defend their rejection of knowledge.

Therefore, because I'm obviously wrong, just tell me this; since y'all are so determined to play all 6 strings in an "open" C major chord, why not just play the low E?

[klasaine]

I'm all for that : Am7/E, C/E, G13sus/E(maj or min), Em#5, Dm11/E, Fmaj9(no root), D2sus4(no root) ... it goes on ... But as to the "original" query, I would stick with C/G to distinguish it from a root position "C" chord.

[Wally]

Okay, I'll jump in.
C/G is not 'wrong', but it is not a C chord....it is a C chord with a G in the bass. It has a different tonality. C/E is valid, but it is not a C chord. It is C/E. IT has a different tonailty....it actually demands resolution..usually to the IV chord 'F'.
This whole debate is unending...theory, right..., but the one thing that determines the answer to some of the questions raised here is 'what key are we in?'. This question resolves whether we are playing an F or a Dm7 without the root.
Mother Maybelle did not use C/G in Wildwood Flower. She did use alternating bass notes on the 1st and 3rd beats of the measure with a strum of the C chord in between the bass notes. C note, strum C, G note Strum....this is the 1 and 5 alternating bass that is used so frequently in country and folk music.
The first time that I ran across the named chord structure for playing the fifth in the bass with a chord was 'Your Song' by Elton John. I was banging it out on piano, which I don't play except for fun and self-education.
I constantly see people playing chords with something other than the root in the bass without understanding the tonal differences and what those bass notes cause our ears to hear and what those notes cause our ears to want to hear next. A third in the bass demands resolution. A fifth in the bass also demands change IF one's ear hears the tonality. ONe can't hear that unless one is listening, and that is what is missing in a great deal of our playing...mine included. I keep working on it, though. When I teach, I insist that students pay attention to these things....they all want to play a barre A form with the fifth in the bass, 6th string note. IT just muddles things up...unless it has a tonal purpose. That purpose is movement, imho. Used in a stationary sense, it is muddling in its effect, to my ear.
At least, that is my theory.....
Know the key, know the tonality, now the movement that certain sounds demand....then break the rules if you must, but know why you are breaking the rules that centuries of ear training have inculcated in our musical psyches.