Good idea to learn songs note for note?

[Brennantele]

In your opinion, is it a helpful practice to learn and practice playing songs note for note?

[jjh37854]

ya for sure, what happens is that it makes you play things that are out of your bag of licks, and sometimes you cant cop the lick correctly, and guess what, that means its a new lick and you came up with it!

But ya I think learning other's playing note for note is a useful activity for sure.

[SixStringSlinger]

It's useful, for sure. It's like reading the instruction maual of a new pedal or whatever. You don't need to, and you probably won't do what it says to do, but you still have a greater insight into what the pedal does and how and why it works like it does. Same with songs.

[chriscrob]

I think its useful; especially when you're just starting out because you can learn a song and play along. At tempo. So you learn to keep time, you learn consistency because you have something that sounds bad every time you play a wrong note.

[Brennantele]

I agree with you guys. I've changed my tune on this. I started out doing this, but when I started taking lessons my lick library expaned pretty quickly. Now that I'm no longer taking lessons, I've started trying to learn all the songs I can to learn some new stuff. I just wanted everybody else's take on this. Thanks for the wisdom.

[Tim Bowen]

Transcribing will always be a great tool for continued musical education. Many veteran professional musicians continue to woodshed over the years, and simply sit down and figure out how to play what somebody else (whose musical approach they admire) has played. Perhaps more accurately, they quickly assess the nuances and idiosyncrasies that they find interesting, in such a way that they can relate to their own material.

For a guy like Jeff Beck, it's more about digging into, say, the Bulgarian Women's Choir, or a techno/electronica record, or going back to his roots and listening to Cliff Gallup play with Gene Vincent, than it is about assimilating every single nuance of the latest Tele God Du Jour's latest guitar ride.

I think transcribing is particularly valuable in the formative years, as it's an absolutely vital aspect of building musical vocabulary, and over time, developing one's one style. I've personally transcribed tons of stuff, from Joe Walsh to Floyd Cramer to Miles Davis. It's good, it's how we learn. Transcribing Robben Ford's lines on "Imperial Strut" from the first Yellowjackets record totally screwed up my head and ears, and changed forever the way that I play. However, at no point did I pursue this stuff with the intention of covering it "note-for-note" in the live environment, as it was (for me) mostly a matter of education. Same with trying to ape Billy Preston's clavinet stuff from those 70's hits like "Outta Space" - I just wanted to grok that sort of percussive thing.

As a young man, I paid my way through college by working with a top 40 cover band, four nights per week, five sets per night. I've no idea how it goes anymore, but at that point, band leaders were fairly adamant about absolutely nailing parts on radio hits, particularly with regard to guitarists. It was a great education, but after a while, the whole scene quickly began to bore the living crap out of me. If somebody were to say to me today, "okay, we're gonna cover this modern country tune, and we need you to absolutely nail that Brad Paisley or Brent Mason guitar ride", I'd probably say something to the effect of "thanks, but you got the wrong guy, get somebody else." What's the point (other than as education); it's been done, and by someone far more gifted than myself. Whether or not I could pull it off is entirely a moot point. I've learned a slew of Jeff Beck's rides, but I've absolutely no interest in covering Jeff Beck tunes. On the other hand, if the guitar part was so integral to the tune that it was on the same page as the lyric - say, George Harrison's parts - my tendency would be to treat the situation with the amount of reverence that a lyric commands/deserves.

In choosing cover tunes anymore, I'm fairly hard nosed. First of all, it has to be a great song before I can get in bed with it, not just something that sounds cool on a recording (and is not really that great of a song). Secondly, if I can't put put a personal arrangement spin on it, it's tough for me to get it excited about it.





My feeling is that, at some point, you've got to learn to trust your instincts, your experience, your heart and your gut, and you have to speak for yourself. It's not always comfortable, nor is it (speaking for myself) always great. However, it's always honest. Think about how children learn to speak - by mocking. Imagine the scenario of a parent saying to their child, "okay son, all of the great thoughts and sentences and phrases and concepts have already been articulated, by folks ranging from Plato to Shakespeare, over the course of many years; don't sweat thinking for yourself, you're good to go if you ape the tried and true." Beethoven's father rapped Ludwig's young fingers quite severely when the child deviated from playing 'by rote' the music of the masters at that time - Bach, Hayden, Mozart, etc. Thank God for all of us that Ludwig rose above all of that, and perseverd with his "improvisations".

[Telenator]

I agree with the others here. Copping licks and chord forms make for an awesome education and it gives the crowd what they want. (in most cases)

Certain songs I feel very strongly about copping solos and chord forms exactly as done on the original recording while other songs are certainly open for interpretation.

I just learned "Reelin in the Years" by Steeley Dan. I can't imagine not playing the chord forms exactly like the original recording, or attempting to start the song without the original guitar solo. At the same time, learning the solo is a HUGE learning experience for me in that Elliot Randall takes an approach I am not familiar with. He plays to each chord sometimes, and then completely abandons "the rules" in some of his phrases. very interesting. I know I will never get this one perfect, but I do have the real important, "big notes" in the right places. The subtle nuances in the phrasing are extremely difficult. It sure doesn't sound too tough when you listen to it, but just try and cop it note for note!

That said, I have to make a case for those, (myself included) who take great joy in presenting music that they feel is technically excellent. I don't mean completely void of soul, but people who truly enjoy playing cover music as close to the original as they can.

For lack of a better analogy, it's kinda like racing on a road course. You go around and around an around, each time refining your race line and nipping 1/100th's of a second from your lap times. Some people truly enjoy this and become career drivers.

Some people just don't like racing.

[Axis29]

It's good if for no other reason than it helps teach your ear to hear different intervals.

As well as many of the other aforementioned reasons.

[Jeffscreamedcorn]

I never transcribe stuff entirely (note by note) unless there's money involved. However, if I hear a bit of something that grabs my attention, I might grab it, and practice it in various permutations. For example, if I hear an interesting II V lick in someone's solo, I'll learn it all 12 keys, different ranges, and explore different fingerings, etc. Then I might try to adjust the notes to accommodate various harmonic variations, or learn the lick backwards (retrograde), or flip the intervals upside down (inversion, both diatonic to the harmony and/or in an exact mirror), and then explore those in all the keys, with all the ranges, fingerings, etc...

By using such an approach one can own the material in a more original and personal sense, and better put it into the context of one's musical point of view.

[ddewerd]

I'm kind of in the middle of the road on this. If it's a tune I really dig, then I'll try to get it as close as possible. Some tunes have signature licks that you just have to play exactly, but then you can be more loose elsewhere in the song.

What I found most helpful in expanding my knowledge, is when I learn something note for note, I try to stop and see what is happening at each chord change. It really gives me some cool ideas how to get out of the familair box.

What I try to do is break down what the solo does on each chord. Even on a simple 3 chord song, something like the Eagles' Already Gone, there are some really interesting things going on in the solo. Each time it switches between G-D-C-G, the solo mixes in and out of major and minor scales.

I used to call this "gloves and mittens". If you play a solo entirely in the same key, then it's more of a mitten, since the regardless of the chord (your fingers), you stay in the same key. If you change keys, or modes, along with the chord changes, then it's more of a glove, where each chord (finger) has a different characteristic (key/mode).

And then between chords you look for things like transitions, maybe a chromatic or harmonized walkup or walkdown. Or maybe for part of it, copy the main vocal melody line, or maybe do that against a call and response kind of thing.

A simple example, in a bluesy kind of thing, play the I chord against a minor pentatonic, then switch to a major scale for the IV, then a major scale harmonized walkdown back to the I, and play the I again in a minor scale, then play the V-IV in an arpeggiated walkdown, and then a major scale turnaround. Even though you are still playing pentatonic boxes, you are switching the feel of the song, especially if you put some transitional walkups or walkdowns between chords.

Once I saw how you could fit all these things together, and switch back and forth between them (learned by analyzing solos note for note), it really expanded my playing ability - not so much as copping the exact riffs, but for seeing the possibilities of what you can do. So when I'm freeform soloing now, I just try to think ahead of using one of these variations (switch key/mode, walkup/down, call/response, etc.), so rather than trying to figure out exactly which notes I'm going to play next, I just get to an idea and improv within it.


Anyways, since summer's coming, I guess I'll have to come up with a new analogy for gloves and mittens - maybe bikinis and one pieces?!?!

Cheers,
Doug

[Grin'n'pick]

I enjoy the challenge of it, and also the repetoire of new licks it generates. It does break you out of your comfort zone for sure. Because I don't have a teacher I like to take stuff like that and then work out the theory behind it to see how it works, and then try and apply it myself. I always assumed this was how the good guys and gals went about it. It depends on the piece whether or not I get obsessed with the accuracy, some things I like to get exactly right others I'll just try and cop the feel and idea of the thing. I know it has got a heck of a lot easier with the advent of the internet and things like the Amazing Slow Downer. How I wish we'd had that when I was a lad! But, back on topic, I don't think it is a bad thing to try and learn things note for note, but you should also strive to use it constructively rather than trying to become an inferior copy of the artist you're taking from. Famously Eddie Van Halen said he could play all of Eric Clapton's solos note for note as a youth and yet his own style didn't sound anything like him.

[Charlesinator]

Learning from recordings is probably the single best practice for making yourself a better musician ... period. You are not only practicing your guitar but increasing your ear training ability plus learning new stuff at the same time. And ... you have not spent a dime other than for the CD you are copying tunes or licks from. And ... the more you do it the better you become. Also songs that you have woodshedded and learned yourself tend to stay with you longer than something somebody may have showed you.

This excercise is great for building independence as well. Not just on the musical side, but a personal one as well. (I am speaking for myself here. So don't think I'm accusing anybody.) The majority of folks who play the guitar I've found tend to be lazy. They are constantly looking for the magic bullet whether it be tab, effects pedal, etc. that'll increase their ability without putting any effort whatsoever into it themselves. I am by no means putting down tab, lessons, DVD's, on line sites (such as this one) or gimmicks but nothing replaces effort in getting to where you want to be skillwise whether it's music or golf.

[mikespe]

I am like ddewerd in that on am in the middle on this one. I have only been playing for just under 2 years so my ability level isn't that high. Sometimes I find a song I want to learn but it has some difficult parts that will take much more time to learn. However, if I want to play the song bad enough I modify it slightly so I can play the song then go back to the hard parts as my ability improves. Sometimes it's those jazz chords that are hard to finger so I find a similar chords that "sounds close" and use that. However, I do try to learn the signature licks since it's those that "make the song". I have simplified versions of Wanted Dead or Alive & Hotel California that I still play as is since it will be a LONG time before I can play them note for note.

[Charlesinator]

Mike both tunes that you have mentioned are relatively easy to learn at least the rhythm parts are. You can get the tab for both songs free on the internet which will cut down on the ear training part. Then just listen and play along with the recording. You can spend 10 min's, 30 min's, 1 hr., more each day or every other day on these tunes. You will nail them. (The more time you spend the quicker you'll master them.) And you'll be a better player and ready for you next self imposed challenge which will get easier the more you involve this process in your playing regimen.

[Larry F]

When I started, I was very lazy. When learning a Beethoven piano sonata, I once ditched the score on the second page and played variations of the first page. On the plus side, this helped sharpen my instincts and learn to generalize from a score or recording. On the minus side, well, I was no Beethoven. As a guitarist, I played around 1,000 gigs in the late 60s and early 70s. We would play songs that we liked, and only rarely were this top 40. We explored Buffalo Springfield, Byrds, Rascals, Hendrix, Cream, Mayall, Winwood, Dead, Mahavishnu, Coryell, Burton, Hancock, Corea, and so on. Also classics by the early rockers, Stones, and Beatles. I never did play note-by-note solos, although I should have done a few for the experience. Also, during my solos, I endeavoured never to play the same solo twice, even trying to radically change the concept each time (I had heard that Charlie Parker did that).

I went on to become a composer, so this was a great experience. The idea that one can become blocked and stuck for ideas is foreign to me. I've spend my whole professional life being inventive on demand, so to speak. Now, in my compositions, I spend about 6 months on a ten-minute piece. So I do a lot of experimenting and enjoy creating interesting structures, which takes a lof of time to do. But I feel as if I am improvising by ear, even though technically I'm not.

After a 20-year layoff, I've picked up the guitar again and love playing blues--primarily Chicago style. Rather than play off the top of my head, I'm trying to reflect the style of my favorites: Otis, Freddy, Buddy, and others. Because of my training as a composer, it is not hard for me to imitate their styles. Composers are taught how to do this, as part of their education. But, I've noticed that my fingers have certain knee-jerk responses that they make. I've thought about this, and have come to the conclusion that old muscle memory patterns are insinuating their way into my playing. Because I value playing from the heart more than playing from the fingers, I'm now trying to retool my muscle memory. So, I create licks that sound good to me, and then practice these as diligently as I used to practice scales (I don't do scales anymore: the notes of the fingerboard are burned into my brain). This has produced very good results for me. I sound like a new, fresh guitarist to my ears. In the process of composing licks (composing is an exaggeration; I spend 10 seconds to a few minutes shaping an idea), I've tried to incorporate finger or coordination things that will improve my knee-jerk responses. I also incorporate 3-6 notes from my idols. Now these notes can't really qualify as licks. They are really fragments of a lick. But to me, they are like the DNA of another player's style, and I find it really interesting to take their blood and transfuse it into my own playing. I'm not stealing ideas, I'm stealing their blood.

As for the historical composers, it used to be a common practice for them to copy by hand the scores of other composers, as a I way stealing their blood (my term). Not stealing ideas, but devling into the mindset and observing the decision-making process up close. Bach's Italian style concertos are said to have been influenced by his copying by hand the works of Vivaldi.

Advice to guitarists copying solos. Try to capture the nuances of fingering, slurs, bends, etc. Not just the notes, but the technique. Because in popular music, the phrasing and inflections are an important part of the solo. Notes are important, too, but in popular music the feel is a big part of the overall musicality.

[mikespe]

Originally Posted by Charlesinator

Mike both tunes that you have mentioned are relatively easy to learn at least the rhythm parts are. You can get the tab for both songs free on the internet which will cut down on the ear training part. Then just listen and play along with the recording. You can spend 10 min's, 30 min's, 1 hr., more each day or every other day on these tunes. You will nail them. (The more time you spend the quicker you'll master them.) And you'll be a better player and ready for you next self imposed challenge which will get easier the more you involve this process in your playing regimen.

Those were just 2 examples off the top of my head but I know the RHYTHM parts are easy. With Hotel California I capo the 2nd fret and use all "open" chords relative to the capo. However, learning the solos and all the fills with smooth transitions WILL take some time.