The "12-bar blues" of jazz?

[Blues Hurler]

This may be a goofy question, but is there such a thing? You know how whenever a couple guys get together, the one thing they can agree on is jammin' on some 12-bar blues. Everybody knows how to play it, and has done so a million times. And everybody can fake a country song in the key of C. Is there such a standard in the jazz realm? Something easy to play that every jazz player knows and that you can get together on the first time you play together and jam away? If so, what is it?

[DaveG]

I'd say the jazz analog (it's not really equivalent) is so-called "rhythm changes." These are the chords to the Gershwin standard "I Got Rhythm." Thousands of tunes and jams are based on them or a variation.

It's an AABA song form. In C the chords would be:

A section
C / Am7 / Dm7 / G7 / C / Am7 / Dm7 / G7 /
C / C7 / F / F#o7 / C / G7 / C / / /

B section
E7 / / / / / / / A7 / / / / / / /
D7 / / / / / / / G7 / / / / / / /

This site has a good explanation:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneych...hmchanges.html

So does this:
http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/p...#RhythmChanges

[eddiewagner]

very cool! works great!
is there something like that for samba/bossa stuff as well?

[Mr. Sparkle]

Cool, Dave, thanks!

[Tim Bowen]

"Jazz" is chock-full of "twelve bar blues". In fact, it thrives on it. Thelonius Monk's "Straight No Chaser" comes immediately to mind, although there are many others. While it's in 6/8 time, the Miles Davis chart "All Blues" is about as I-IV-V as jazz gets. If you're interested in hearing a pop rock band's spin on "jazzy blues", check out the Atlanta Rhythm Section's reading of the Grant Green tune, "Blues in Maude's Flat" from Third Annual Pipedream, which is a great and vibey listen.

Jazz blues has lots of chord substitutions, II-V's and such. However, if you're looking to relate it back to greasy shuffles, I think the most notable differences are in measures two and six, as well as within the last four bars. Bar #2 often contains a "quick change" to the IV7, and bar #6 often contains a diminished chord up a half step up from the IV7, before returning to the I7. The last four bars usually contain some variety of the II and VI chords, as contrasted to the typical V-IV-I-V bar room shuffle, and turnaround within the last two bars is often I-VI-II-V. In a jazzy blues, sometimes the II and VI chords are treated as minor seventh chords, sometimes as secondary dominant sevenths.

Then of course there's minor blues. John Coltrane's "Mr PC" is a basic vehicle for the format. Obviously, Mr. Coltrane's readings were not basic. Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" is an example of a minor tune that contains fairly sophisticated underlyling harmony underneath the head, yet typically opens up improvisation for the minor blues format.

Don't have a fake book in front of me to verify that all mentioned are indeed comprised of twelve bars. "Key to the Highway" is an eight bar blues, I believe.

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by gibson guy

This may be a goofy question, but is there such a thing? You know how whenever a couple guys get together, the one thing they can agree on is jammin' on some 12-bar blues. Everybody knows how to play it, and has done so a million times. And everybody can fake a country song in the key of C. Is there such a standard in the jazz realm? Something easy to play that every jazz player knows and that you can get together on the first time you play together and jam away? If so, what is it?

Certainly not a goofy question.

I think "Autumn Leaves" is the most frequent starter followed by "All the Things You Are".

But the scarier thing is that if you sit in on a jazz jam, you are generally expected to have a bunch of standards in your head and under your fingers. These would typically include songs like "Satin Doll", "Stella By Starlight", "Cherokee", "Out of Nowhere" and about 25-50 more. If you don't have your chops sorted, a jazz jam can be pretty unforgiving. I am still at the stage where I only go to "junior" ones.

It is similar to folk/bluegrass/old time fiddle jams. Somebody might shout out "Arkansas Traveller" or "Under the Double Eagle" and you just need to be able to play it.

[stevieboy]

Originally Posted by Tim Bowen

"Jazz" is chock-full of "twelve bar blues". In fact, it thrives on it. .

Let's not forget Jimmy Smith--you might have to look in the jazz section to find him, but most of his stuff is about as greasy as blues gets. And Kenny Burrell is right there with him.

[Tim Bowen]

Right on, Stevie, nail hit squarely on head. Pretty much everything that Jimmy ever laid down smacked of bluesy jazz/jazzy blues. I like that record he did with Wes Montgomery - Jimmy and Wes the Dynamic Duo. Kenny Burrell is one of the most swinging cats of all time. The record that he did with Coltrane often gets panned by the critics, but there's some good blues there as well, notably "Freight Train".

[bluetele54]

...there's some great stuff that George Benson did early in his career with Brother Jack...Kenny Burrell,and Pat Martino too...Big John Patton as well with a lot of Grant Green...some great Houston Person albums with Melvin Sparks...Billy Butler on Prestige offers some good bluesy stuff (Billy Butler was the guitarist on "Honky Tonk" w' Bill Doggett...there's a bunch of albums on the King,Columbia,Roulette,and Warner Bros. labels by Doggett that are good too)...Don Patterson w' Pat Martino...Willis Jackson w' Pat Azzaro aka Pat Martino!!!

[renegadetele]

a lot of jazz tunes are also based on a series of ii-V-I or iio-v-i (minor version of the first one i listed) progressions

[Blues Hurler]

See, you guys know everything... I'm gonna have to study on this some.

[firefrets]

This isn't meant to be argumentative...at all...but when i here people talk about blues being 12 bar....and easy....it kind of shows how naive people are.
The real deal,is that blues as a genre,is a damn site more complicated,sophisticated,and melodic,than people give it credit for,and in my humble opinion..even more so than jazz.People substitute chords,and call it jazz,when in fact....it is still blues.Jazz standards,are the equivalent of modern day pop songs,and don't hold any particular structure or sequence,to jam over,any more than the songs you here coming out of modern day radio,so to quote our good friend Mr nahum,and his theory of needing to know 25-50 songs is in my opinion pure hogwash.Playing standards is NOT jamming,but the equivalent of performing covers.I know,and have played with,many professional jazzers,and the chance of any of them KNOWING 25-50 standards,without the use of sheet music,is highly unlikely.Remember,we are talking about Jamming,not reciting.
Try explaining to someone that songs such as summertime,georgia on my mind,cry me a river, to name a few,are not blues,even though they are all standards.A huge amount of jazz songs are basically blues,and it is important to remember that it is the ears that decide on the genre...not the chord sequence.Jazz is originally piano based,thus the reason for most of the substitutions,but like blues,it has a massive amount of grey areas,regarding style,approach,and technical skill.Lots of jazzers are very tecnical,but can't play soulfully,or melodically,to save their lives,and i would be disappointed if the tecnical ability appealed to you more.The great players are not always tecnically blessed,but blend notes from a different perspective.Remember jazz was originally,and still is,freestyle jamming.Modern players are dismissing the old chord styles in favour of a fresh approach,and it's getting less complicated by the day.
Here are some chords you should know,and are all moveable:
G Mj 7..3x443x.....G Mj 6...3x243x...Am7 5x5555....Am6 5x4555...D13b5b9...46x577...GMj7...7x577x...D13b9. .xx4547...GMj6..xx2433...D11..5x553x...CMj7..x3545 x..CMj6..x3225x.....Dm7..x5x565...Dm6..x5x465...Dm 7..x57x68...G7#5b9..3x3444...CMj6/9...x32233...G13..3X3455...G7..3X343X..G#DIM..4X34 3X..Eb7...xx1323...G13..78798X...GMj6...x10 998x GMj7xx5777...G13..xx3453....G7#5...xx3443....hope these help.Just move them up/down to get the other chords,get yourself a fake book,or just play with them.These are most of the chords you will need to play modern jazz.Dont be afraid,as they're no more difficult than your blues chords,just different,and most can be found in blues anyway.

[firefrets]

Just some further advice....FORGET scales,as in most cases,it will bog you down.Take each chord,play each note seperately,and find passing notes that connect them....in other words....solo using the chord tones and shapes.This will give you a huge leap forward in all playing styles...not just jazz.Scales are for brass,and anoracks :-) and there are too many for one persons lifetime,lol.Go from a GMJ7 to the 6th,then Bm7,Bbm7.Am7,D9,and back to GMj7 for a quick example.Then do the same one fret up/down.Then take the same chords using the other shapes,and do the same.You'll soon be jamming like a red hot jazzer in no time.Listen to the bass notes for the vibe,and dont play the crossed off notes.Instead,dampen them with surrounding fingers.When someone quotes 1,4,5,or 1,6,2,5, they are referring to a harmonised scale for example, in 7ths,would be CMJ7,Dm7,Em7,FMj7,G Mj7,Am7,Bm7b5,and CMj7.You can remove the 7ths,or extend them even further.For a jazz feel,don't always resolve back to the root,nor start on it during lead work.Try starting one note down

[Blues Hurler]

Yikes! Thanks for all the chords (and advice) firefrets. I certainly didn't mean to imply that blues is easy, or just 12 bar, but part of the beauty to me is that it CAN be easy and 12 bar and still sound great. At any rate, I love a lot of the mix between jazz and blues and want to experiment with some of that, so I'm going to print your message and take it with me on holiday next week and see what I can make of it, because a lot of those chords will be new to me. I should look for a simple "starter" book that'll tell me how they go together and when to use them in substitutions, but I'm thinking that by playing around with them, I may figure some of that out myself. I play a lot of the older stuff like Muddy and whatnot in my band, and we tend to keep it fairly simple, but I may be holding them back a bit by doing that so I want to expand my vocabulary a bit (but you know it's hard to find the time).
Adios.

[Chris S.]

Originally Posted by firefrets

This isn't meant to be argumentative...at all... to quote our good friend Mr nahum,and his theory of needing to know 25-50 songs is in my opinion pure hogwash... I know,and have played with,many professional jazzers,and the chance of any of them KNOWING 25-50 standards,without the use of sheet music,is highly unlikely.Remember,we are talking about Jamming,not reciting.

Uh... this isn't meant to be argumentative either (at least not in a confrontational sense) but you might ask some of your "jazzers" about that: I think you'll find many of them actually know several hundred standards to jam on – without the use of sheet music. That and some of your other statements above ("Lots of jazzers are very tecnical (sic),but can't play soulfully,or melodically,to save their lives...") don't really square with my experience(s) – but maybe we've just been playing with different folks. ;-)

These are most of the chords you will need to play modern jazz.

Actually, those are a few common guitar 'grab' forms of a few basic chords with various extensions – but they hardly constitute "most of the chords you will need to play modern jazz." :-\ What you will need is either a truly GREAT ear, OR a good working knowledge of theory, including chord construction, chord/scale relationships, and functional harmony – or both... ;-)

I do like your suggestion in your 2nd post of concentrating on chord tones and finding the notes that connect them. :-) But that's where a little knowledge of theory can go a long way, i.e., helping you find the RIGHT notes. ;-) All IMO, of course – but again, ask some of your jazzer friends, and see what they tell you. Hope it helps, CS :-)

(P.S. This has nothing to do with any of the above [and is NOT meant as a criticism] but your posts might be a little easier to read if you would learn to use the space bar after every punctuation mark. Don't be afraid, it's no more difficult than any of the other keys on the keyboard. Hee.) ;-) Thx. :-)

[firefrets]

Chris....i'm not even biting buddy.
We've been down this road together a few times,and as always,you seem to know best.Must be real encouraging to a newbie jazzer to read your post....think about it and pm me if your unhappy...kind of practising what we preach...:-)

[firefrets]

ps..i kind of thought the idea of quoting was to do exactly that...Not to cut and paste as you see fit in order to misrepresent a well meant message of encouragement.Regarding the space bar, if your time out was easier to adhere to when posting a reasonably large mail, i may even remember to do just that, though i was very afraid at first, lol.

[Chris S.]

Yikes, my apologies. :-( All I was saying was that my experience differed from yours in several respects. If I misunderstood you or quoted you out of context, again, my apologies. :-|

I've had a fair number of students over the years, and I've always tried to encourage them to get out and PLAY jazz with others as much as possible, right away. I actually agree with a lot of what you said, especially that it's about jamming, not reciting. At the same time, I've always tried to equip them with as many tools as they could handle to have FUN doing it. (I remember all too well how little fun it was for me early on, being in the middle of a jam session and not having the faintest clue as to what was going on... It was like the other players were speaking a different language. )

Again, just my experience, and I'm sorry if I came across as confrontational, that really was NOT my intent. Thx, CS :-)

[firefrets]

Consider it kissed and made up already.....but for the record ( and the press ,lol).....there was no tongues.........lol :-))))))))

[Tim Bowen]

"For me, jazz, R&B, jump swing, Chicago blues, country blues, early hillbilly music, and honky tonk all stem from the same source."

- Duke Robillard






I love this quote.