Explain to me the 'cycle of fiths'...

[Twang Tone]

Hi all,

I need to understand the concept of the 'cycle of fifths'.

I heard talk about it here, and I recently learnt an old song that contained the chords:
C, A7, D7, G7 and back to C.

Is this an example of the cycle of fiths? If so, why?

Am I WAY off?!!!

Please help! :?

[eddiewagner]

the circle of fith tells you the "family" of chords. for c its: c, f, g am, em, dm. its very handy to know about it. get a turnable one made of cardboard. you gonna love it. sooner or later you will know instinctly whats going on in songs.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Twang Tone

C, A7, D7, G7 and back to C.
Is this an example of the cycle of fiths? If so, why?

Sure, that's it. I V7 I is the fundamental chord progression in Western music, and the basic idea is that you can precede any chord by its own V7, or speaking properly, by a dominant seventh chord a perfect fifth above. In your example the final C is preceded by its V7, G7, which is preceded by its V7, D7, etc.

We jump off to different chords to start the cycle, the most common being II7 V7 I, which is D7 in the key of C; (C) Hey good lookin', What you got cookin' (D7) How's about cookin' (G7) somthing up with (C) me.

The one you asked about, the VI7 II7 V7 I is found in Sweet Georgia Brown, and is ubiquitous in swing tunes, used as a progression for verses, as a vamp, and as a turn around between verses. (C) (A7) No girl made can hold a shade to Sweet Georgia Brown (D7) Two left feet but oh so neat has Sweet Georgia Brown (G7) They all sigh and want to die for Sweet Gergia Brown, I'm telling you (C) Why, you know I don't lie (E7) not much, etc.

Less often you see III7 VI7 II7 V7 I, in Five Foot Two Eyes of Blue: (C) Five foot two (E7) Eyes of blue (A7) But oh what five foot two can do (D7) Has anybody (G7) Seen my (C) Girl; and Please Don't Talk About When I'm Gone.

The same principle is used to precede some minor chords by their V7. In Georgia, the progression goes: (C) Georgia, (E7) Georgia, (Am) a song of you, etc. And Crazy: (C) Crazy, (A7) Crazy for being being so (Dm) lonely.

The general term for these are secondary dominants.

[Robin Nahum]

Originally Posted by Twang Tone

I need to understand the concept of the 'cycle of fifths'.

I heard talk about it here, and I recently learnt an old song that contained the chords:
C, A7, D7, G7 and back to C.

Is this an example of the cycle of fiths? If so, why?

Not quite. The A-D-G-C bit is. You're progressing by 4ths from A through to C. If you went backwards from the C back to the A you would be progressing in 5ths as Leon has explained. Maybe it should be called the cycle of htfifs but this is how it is.

The C-A bit is not part of the cycle of fifths as C is the b3rd of A.

Your example is something called "backcycling" which uses the cycle to add colour to an otherwise static rhythm. For example, if the chart just shows many bars of C, you can break this up by backcycling to the final C - provided it fits with the melody of course.

The classic use of the cycle is in the "(I Got) Rhythm" changes e.g:

Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 Fm7 Bb7 Ebm7 Ab7

[Twang Tone]

Leon & Robin, thank you both so very much!

Leon, that's a great help - superbly demonstrated, thanks!

Robin, that makes sense too, thank you.

My thanks to both of you for helping me to understand the theory of the cycle of fifths.

Eddie, I'll look out for that cardboard gizmo - sounds like a great idea. Thanks.

Having realised it's all about the player and not the guitar, I've shifted the emphasis from collecting guitars to learning how to play them better!

Thanks again, guys! :D

[Jeff S]

I have a completely different take on this based on my theory classes.

Although the information given above is useful stuff, the cycle of fifths is not related to chord progressions. It gives you the relationships among the keys.

If you start with C, and go up by perfect 5ths, you will generate

C G D A E B F# C# G# D# A# E# B#(=C)

Using this cycle you generate all the sharp keys:

C - no sharps
G - 1 sharp (F)
D - 2 sharps (F, C)
A - 3 sharps (F, C, G)

and so on, although you may never see anything written beyond F#; the equivalent flat key is generally used instead (e.g., D# = Eb). You will also notice that every time you add a sharp, you are adding the note a perfect fifth above the last sharp, so that also follows the cycle.

Now if we go the other direction, which moves by perfect 4ths, we can generate the flat keys:

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb. . . .

C - no flats
F - 1 flat (Bb)
Bb - 2 flats (Bb, Eb)
Eb - 3 flats (Bb, Eb, Ab)

and so on, although you will likely not see Gb or above. You will notice that every time you add a flat for the key signature, it is a perfect 4th up from the last one.

It's called the cycle, or sometimes circle, of fifths because it returns to its starting point. You can actually write them in a circle like a clock, and the flat keys are the same circle going in the opposite direction, since the notes are the same, as I noted above.

Found a good Wikipedia article on it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

[Steveinthesticks]

Print and assembly circle of fifths tool from the Tiki King


http://www.tikiking.com/circle_of_fifths.html


Enjoy


Steve

[blacklinefish]

Originally Posted by Robin Nahum

Not quite. The A-D-G-C bit is. You're progressing by 4ths from A through to C. If you went backwards from the C back to the A you would be progressing in 5ths as Leon has explained. Maybe it should be called the cycle of htfifs but this is how it is.

"HTFIFS," hah!

So, if we progress by Fourths, we get "Hey Joe":

C G D A E EE7 E

++++

There is so much you can learn about music by understanding the relationship of these fifths, as key signatures, as chords, as harmonic overtones, and as scales. Yes, scales. Check out this link:http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lesso...r_dummies.html

If you move forward (clockwise as it is usually written) in the circle of fifths, the first 5 letters are the major pentatonic scale (eg. in the key of Gmajor, we have G, D, A, E, B), of course it is out of order, but ignore that. If you know enough about key signatures to know that the minor key is similar to the major started at the third "note" or degree, then you can find the G minor pentatonic scale by starting at Bb and seeing the first five notes (Bb, F, C, G, D) again not in order.

It is confusing when you realize that moving Up a fifth is the same as moving down a 4th... But you should always think like building a chord - moving UP. I bet you can find the root of any major chord on the lowest three strings - so you can find the fifth of that by going one string higher, and up two frets. Think about trumpet players (etc) who have to visualize the music staff to know what the fifth above any note or chord is. I happen to think guitarists have it easier than keyboard players here (who need to remember sharps and flats). This, of course, assumes that you know the names of the notes in the first 6 or 7 frets of your lowest strings (learn those!).

--gh

/first post, and like a geek I went straight to a music theory thread
//don't have a tele, but long for one

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Jeff S

I have a completely different take on this based on my theory classes.

Although the information given above is useful stuff, the cycle of fifths is not related to chord progressions. It gives you the relationships among the keys.

I’ve been waiting for some bit of clever repartee about the practical vs the academic to emerge from my brain, but it seems like it ain’t gonna come. Somebody help me here.

Anyway, I’ll just stand by my answer as being responsive to the question, and accurate, in that musicians call a series of dominant chords resolving down a fifth, then that one down a fifth, etc. “cycle of fifths progressions,” even though the proper academic term might be “sequence of secondary dominants.”

At the risk of continuing to be useful, let me add the following: in all of the cycles I have referred to, the roots of the secondary dominants are all scale tones. Look at the cycle VI7 II7 V7 I, in C: A7 D7 G7 C. The roots of the secondary dominants, A, and D, are scale tones, and are normally the roots of minor chords in the key of C. If you add a scale tone 7th tone to each, they are minor seventh chords. You will start to notice progressions where in effect, some of the chords in the cycle are minor sevenths, ie. Am7 Dm7 G7 C, or A7 Dm7 G7 C, or Am7 D7 G7 C, etc. You still have a sequence of chords with root movement down a fifth, just not all played as dominants. (Same thing, of course, with plain old minors instead of m7ths)

Look at Crazy, where you first have C A7 Dm7 G7, then C Am7 Dm7 G7:

(C) Crazy, (A7) Crazy for being so (Dm7) lonely, (G7) Crazy, crazy for being (C) Blue, Am7 Dm7 G7.

You will find that some people will play a song with A7 in a sequence where someone else may play Am7 in that same place.

[Leon Grizzard]

Originally Posted by Robin Nahum

Not quite. The A-D-G-C bit is. You're progressing by 4ths from A through to C. If you went backwards from the C back to the A you would be progressing in 5ths as Leon has explained. Maybe it should be called the cycle of htfifs but this is how it is.

As long I'm lashing out - I believe the common usage is to refer to this movement from A-D as resolution down a fifth, rather than resolution up a fourth.

I agree that in some ways, my explanation is backwards, in that it describes putting one chord in front of another, rather than describing the foreward motion, like I've Got Rhythm. It might be more accurate to say if you keep resolving down a fifth, you'll end up where you want to go. The trick is start at the right point so it doesn't take all day. And in most popular music tunes, that means III, VI, or II.

[Jeff S]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

I’ve been waiting for some bit of clever repartee about the practical vs the academic to emerge from my brain, but it seems like it ain’t gonna come. Somebody help me here.

Sure I'll help. :D The circle of fifths isn't just academic; using it to learn how to define key signatures is pretty practical, IMHO. But we're talking about two different things.

The "circle of fifths" is classic theory, and the "cycle of fifths progressions" is a different animal (which is very well explained by your other term, secondary dominants). They just both happen to move in fifths. Two different ideas but no conflict, no dispute, peaceful co-existence, we're all getting along fine here.

Anyway, I’ll just stand by my answer as being responsive to the question, and accurate. . .

Well, nobody said it was wrong. Just sayin' there's more information from a different angle. If you search for "circle of fifths" on the Internet, you will get explanations nearly all like the one I linked, so I'm not some nut making this stuff up.

[Leon Grizzard]

I didn't really take it as disagreement. I don't like smilies or lol; is there one for "That's a joke, Son?" But your post has made me think about the practical uses of knowing the circle of fifths. Certainly one ought to know the fourth and fifth of every note, and all the other intervals too. But other than being able to figure key signatures, what else does one use that knowlege for, on an everyday basis, for a "typical" forumite? I mean that as a real inquiry, not as snip?

[Jeff S]

Originally Posted by Leon Grizzard

But other than being able to figure key signatures, what else does one use that knowlege for, on an everyday basis, for a "typical" forumite?

Other than that? Not a darn thing. It's foundational knowledge but doesn't help you discover much in the way of how to play what against which.

However, when I practice scales I rotate through them in the circle of fifths; it's a systematic way to explore the fretboard. I sometimes try to practice entire songs in different keys the same way.