Stop the MPA

[mearlhart]

You might not know but the Music Publishers Association has filed an injunction shutting down many lyric and tableture sites. You can help by signing this pettition sharing your desire to stop them.

http://new.petitiononline.com/mvmpa05

Marty

[Joe-Bob]

Well, unless the lyrics are in the public domain, like very old tunes, then they do still have a right, and even an obligation, to enforce their copyright priviledges.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Well, unless the lyrics are in the public domain, like very old tunes, then they do still have a right, and even an obligation, to enforce their copyright priviledges.

Sve..I mean Joe-Bob, has it right.:D

Sign the petition if you want, but it won't go anywhere.

The publishing industry wants to sell sheet music and guitar books. Back when I started out, for anything I couldn't figure out on my own, I bought a guitar book from Woolworth's. Publishers license the print rights to Hal Leonard and other companies like that to sell sheet music. But people aren't buying the books when they can download the tab and lyrics for free. That's lost revenue to not only the publishers, but the songwriters as well, who usually get 50% of the license fee and a royalty for each book sold. The publishers should follow the eTunes and iTunes models: Make it available for download for $0.49 a song.

[gls500]

Lyrics? Absolutely, they have a right.

Printed sheet music? Yeah, sure.

Tab created by users on the internet? That's a slippery slope that I'm not sure they can claim ownership on. With no time signature, basically they would be saying that they "own" the rights to anyone every playing that sequence of fretted notes on the guitar, no matter what rhythm or timing they're played at, and that it had never been played that way ever before.

[mearlhart]

See, I thought that only the melody could be copyrighted. So say I recorded an Eddie VanHalen lick in a song... They going to go after me? Anyhow, I would think that tabs would increase sales of CDs not diminish them. The artists are concerned about their music. It's the profiteering of the publishers who are raising their concerns over Tabs.

I thought this had been settled a long time ago. Tabs are for educational purposes and that's covered under fair use. MDA is trying to redefine this issue and has unfairly put many into stress by asking inprisonment for the owners of all tab sites.

Marty

[cdhaskett]

I highly doubt that any of these MPA people play instruments like we do. It's sad...but it is an age old thing...anything one can do to make money...one will do.

:(

[ddewerd]

If they are going after tab sites, then they will have to go through every single tab to make sure that it is, in fact, an exact copy of how the original was done.

It may be the only way to correct all of the bad tab on the net

Cheers,
Doug

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by Joe-Bob

Well, unless the lyrics are in the public domain, like very old tunes, then they do still have a right, and even an obligation, to enforce their copyright priviledges.

Lyrics are published, and therefore protected.

For tablature to be protected, it would have to be published as well. While some things have been been published in tablature, most have not.

Let's take a look a jazz for example. If a combo plays a jazz standard that is copyrighted, and one of the players improvises a solo, does the music publisher have any rights to that solo? If someone transcribes the solo and puts it up on the net, does that violate the publisher's rights? Or maybe the soloist's rights?

Or is that solo simply something that is not afforded any protection under the current system. I think this is the case. If a company publishes sheet music to Brad Paisely's album, but doesn't include note-by-note the guitar solos and fills, what legal instrument protects those solos and fills? They aren't published. If they aren't puslished, then they aren't subject to protection.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

Lyrics are published, and therefore protected.

For tablature to be protected, it would have to be published as well. While some things have been been published in tablature, most have not.

If a company publishes sheet music to Brad Paisely's album, but doesn't include note-by-note the guitar solos and fills, what legal instrument protects those solos and fills? They aren't published. If they aren't puslished, then they aren't subject to protection.

This is a good point RC, but they have been "published" in a sense, since they've been copyrighted via the sound recording.

I don't think the publishers are after "lick" tabs. They're after the words and music. If solo's are tabbed without any other information than the solo itself, it would be tougher to have a case. What's a bunch of double stops anyways?:D

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

This is a good point RC, but they have been "published" in a sense, since they've been copyrighted via the sound recording.

I don't think the publishers are after "lick" tabs. They're after the words and music. If solo's are tabbed without any other information than the solo itself, it would be tougher to have a case. What's a bunch of double stops anyways?:D

Nope. In the case of a song on a CD with published sheet music, the RECORDING on the CD would be protected from unauthorized use or duplication. The music on the sheet music would be protected from unauthorized use or duplication. But that's all.

Transcribing parts of the music off a CD that are not in the published music would violate nothing because they would be unpublished works BY DEFINITION OF THE PUBLISHER.

A work that was never published could actually claim more latitude of protection by default than one that was published in an incomplete fashion.

[fezz parka]

Sorry RC, if it's on a commercially available record its published. When you register a recording with the LOC via form SR, you copyright the arrangement as well as the words and music (if it is an original composition). If it's a cover tune, you copyright the sound recording and the arrangement. The licks can be considered part of the arrangement, therfore the "licks" are copywritten.

Here's some pretty good explanations and definitions: Copyright and more...

The best bet for the tabs sites will be "Fair Use" for educational purposes...

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

Sorry RC, if it's on a commercially available record its published. When you register a recording with the LOC via form SR, you copyright the arrangement as well as the words and music (if it is an original composition). If it's a cover tune, you copyright the sound recording and the arrangement. The licks can be considered part of the arrangement, therfore the "licks" are copywritten.

Here's some pretty good explanations and definitions: Copyright and more...

Okay. Let's look at it that way.

Les Paul records Misty. The rights to the song still belong to Erroll Garner. The rights to the arrangement would belong to Les Paul.

Now, I post a tablature of Les Paul's arrangement on the Internet.

Who can sue me? Les Paul, Erroll Garner, or both?

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

Okay. Let's look at it that way.

Les Paul records Misty. The rights to the song still belong to Erroll Garner. The rights to the arrangement would belong to Les Paul.

Now, I post a tablature of Les Paul's arrangement on the Internet.

Who can sue me? Les Paul, Erroll Garner, or both?

The publisher, Octave Music Publishing Corp. would on behalf of both of them.

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

The publisher, Octave Music Publishing Corp. would on behalf of both of them.

But it the publisher of the original work and the copyright holder of the recording are two different entities, how does that work?

Admittedly this is a stretch, but let's say...

There's an Al Jolson recording of a song where the publisher still holds a copyright on the song, but the recording itself is now in the public domain. There is a TAB of the guitar solo. Is that TAB public domain?

My question here is one of enforcement. If Les Paul doesn't want to pursue the tab site for tabbing his arrangement, does the publisher of the original song still hold a valid complaint? Even over the improvised solos? It's academic, but I wonder...

[RCinMempho]

One more comment.

The recording industry fought long and hard to protect themselves on-line. They really had very little success, and frankly are still having very little success from a legal standpoint.

However, their rights are becoming generally accepted because the product is now available for purchase on-line. It is obvious to most decent people that taking something for free that other people have a right to sell is stealing. But, when it is not for sale, as was the case in the early years, there was no moral reason not to get it for free. It wasn't available any other way.

This is the challenge the music industry faces. The only way to make this actually work is to give people easy access to buy what they are getting today for free. If that's done, then they should be able to succeed.

There is definitely a market for tablature, lead sheets, and sheet music arrangements. However, there is no mechanism in place for paying and/or protecting the people who transcribe them. That's a missing piece of the puzzle that will have to be improved for things to work in the Internet world. Until that is done, nothing substantial is likely to change.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

But it the publisher of the original work and the copyright holder of the recording are two different entities, how does that work?

The publisher would go after any infringement of the song as written or arranged. The sound recording owner would go after unauthorized duplication or use of the sound recording.

Originally Posted by RCinMempho

However, there is no mechanism in place for paying and/or protecting the people who transcribe them. That's a missing piece of the puzzle that will have to be improved for things to work in the Internet world. Until that is done, nothing substantial is likely to change.

Sure there is. They obtain a license from the publisher, and charge the cost of transcription to the end user. From this fee, they pay for their license and their costs.

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

The publisher would go after any infringement of the song as written or arranged. The sound recording owner would go after unauthorized duplication or use of the sound recording.

Sure there is. They obtain a license from the publisher, and charge the cost of transcription to the end user. From this fee, they pay for their license and their costs.

For that process to work commercially, you need something like this to happen.

You have a web-site of tablature. The website charges a certain amount for membership. Transcribers submit work to the website for "publishing". The work is evaluated and "purchased" from the transcriber. The web site then pays for the licensing and retains ownership of the transcription.

What I am saying is that web-based model doesn't exist, and it will be up to the industry to encourage the development of such sites. Without them, there will not be a sufficient amount of product available for purchase. If there is not enough product available, then people will continue to their free infringement of copyrights because of the lack of available alternatives.

It took a long time for the recording industry to realize it was sitting on a golden goose. The publishing industry should see the light already, but I have a nagging feeling they don't.

[Brian blaut]

Well, if they'd actually PUBLISH note for note tabs for all guitar music, I'd be all for it. I would rather spend $20 for the transcribed "mud on the tires" book any day then hunt around on the internet for 5 different versions that are all wrong.

But, they don't seem to be in any hurry to print the book, so I'll take what I can get.

And when they stop that, I'll go back to just trying to figure it out. I learn more that way anyway.

[fezz parka]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

The publishers should follow the eTunes and iTunes models: Make it available for download for $0.49 a song.

There it is...

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

There it is...

No. That's not the point here.

With recorded music, the issue was making the already existing product available through digital means. The product existed.

In the case of tablature, the problem IS the product. The Internet has made it possible for anyone to post their Tab, and that's why there are 1000's of bad Tabs out there. But, there isn't a sufficient amount of "official" tabs to meet demand. If there was, we wouldn't see all the inaccurate tab all over the net. Instead we would see illegal copies of the published, accurate Tab.

Tab is different in that there is much more demand than there is supply. However, the demand is so splintered across the millions of possible songs, that there isn't enough economic incentive to publish Tab for most things.

So, a different model is needed, and that model needs to make it easy for people to post a Tab and to compensate them in an unobtrusive manner. There would have to be some type of quality control to eliminate the "bad" tabs and reward the "good" tabs.

My proposal. A tab website would accept submissions from anyone who registered. A submission would become freely available, but each download would require a rating from the viewer as to the quality of the tablature. After 10 ratings from different registered users, a tab of poor quality would be removed from publication. A tab of medium to high quality would be published - along with its ratings/reviews - and no longer be free. At that point the tab would be copyrighted and fees would begin to be collected and paid to both the composers and the transcribers.

[fezz parka]

I understand your point RC.:D

There's no way publishers will allow something to be made available without there being a license in place. I've worked in the music industry for the past 15 years and in my experience, it ain't gonna happen...

[RCinMempho]

Originally Posted by fezz parka

I understand your point RC.:D

There's no way publishers will allow something to be made available without there being a license in place. I've worked in the music industry for the past 15 years and in my experience, it ain't gonna happen...

It will happen. The only question is how long they cut their own throats before they realize the amount of revenue they are losing.

[fezz parka]

We'll see. :D