banjo rolls....

[gitarjoe]

drive me crazy. Do any of you guys have a problem with your fingers not moving fast enough? I play alot of country, but fast banjo rolls are a problem. If I play fast,it sounds sloppy. Please, don't say practice more. I have been. Any solutions, would be greatly appreciated.

[Chris S.]

The only tip I can offer is my own experience, which is that even tempo and smooth execution are everything. When I first started working on banjo rolls and Travis-picking stuff done hybrid style (i.e, flat pick and two fingers) I had to start off <u>painfully</u> slowly -- and it seemed to take forever and a day before I built up any speed. :-( And even then, it was gradual progress, not rapid.

I'd say work with a metronome and figure out what the fastest tempo is where you can play every note <u>perfectly</u>, with zero flubs -- and that you can execute almost "mindlessly," i.e., the right hand patterns become pretty much automatic. (As soon as I try to think about what I'm doing, I'm sunk...) :-| Then try to inch up the metronome one notch every couple of weeks or so; within a few months, you should be zippin' right along.

Again, my apologies if that's not the answer you wanted, but it's what worked for me. :-| Best of luck, CS :-)

[Chris S.]

Originally Posted by Roli

Rapid right hand movements are a pain for us (semi-)southpaws who play right handed. :? Aren't you in this group too, gitarjoe?

I don't know about gitarjoe, but I am. And I always thought it gave us an advantage, not a handicap. At the risk of derailing this thread, here's a list of "righties who play(ed) lefty:"

Danny Gatton
Johnny Hiland
Joe Pass
Nils Lofgren
Joe Perry
Glenn Campbell
Paul Simon
Steve Morse
Gary Moore
Shannon Curfman
Joe Strummer
Mark Knopfler
Roy Clark
Waddy Wachtel

There are some pretty good right hands in there... ;-) All IMO, of course. CS

[Rightsideup]

Being a lefty, I can't even begin to imagine playing guitar in the right handed position! But here's a kicker for ya, I only play right-handed strung guitars. I just flip em over and do my thing.

[gitarjoe]

how did you guys know I was left handed? That is really weird. But, I will try the metronome idea. Thanks.

[Rick J]

When I started playing guitar at age around 11 or so, I assumed I *was* playing left handed, (I'm a natural leftie) because the "hard part", (making chords) was being done with my left hand, while the "easy part", (at that stage!) was just strumming the strings with the right hand. I was quite surprised to find that this was how righties usually played. When I got a little more advanced, I also found it easier to bend strings, and play double stops than some of my rightie friends, because of the inherent strength of my left hand compared to my right.

I did however train up my right hand in later years to learn Chet-style fickerpicking, but I admit even now fast rolls are not my strongest point, and at the time it took over a year of constant practice to eventually learn to divorce my thumb from the other fingers for Chet-style stuff, where other players I knew could get that technique going within a couple of months.

I still feel like I'm playing the guitar left handed, even now, forty-odd years on, - if I ever pick up a leftie guitar, it feels very wierd - I can't even make the basic chords with my right hand! (Try it!)

So, I'm also interested in learning tricks to speed up right hand banjo style playing, but I think Chris is right, slowly does it, then a bit quicker, then a bit quicker....

Rick J

[Mr. Sparkle]

...is to play the banjo. Having experience on the banjo gives you a different perspective. Doing this, you approach playing banjo on guitar from a banjo perspective, rather than a guitar perspective. Basically, you revert to playing banjo on the guitar, rather than imitating playing banjo on the guitar.

Don't know if I'm explaining this correctly.

[ednew]

I agree there's a major benefit to spending time with banjo in hand. Endlessly repeating right hand rolls can drive you crazy, but ultimately it's worth it.

In the very early 70's somebody gave me a long neck banjo to mess aroung with. Flatt & Scruggs albums motivated me even more.

I bought Earl's book (recently reprinted BTW with cd and some new copy and original typo corrections) and spent an entire summer working many hours 7 days a week to smooth out banjo rolls: forward rolls, alternating bass rolls, reverse rolls, forward/reverse rolls X10,000.

Tied a towel around the neck to mute the damn thing--couldn't stand it otherwise.

Most banjo fans make the mistake of trying to play too fast and then have to unlearn all the right hand mistakes that have now burned themselve into your brain. I was no different. Guess it's true what they say about banjo pickers.

I little later I got some of Bill Keith and Tony Trishka's instructional tapes. They emphasized the absolute importance of training the right hand fingers to perform as Chris mentioned above--with strength and consistency.

That summer of banjo torture really opened the door for me to hybrid guitar picking and would be a major skill enhancer for any guitarist. Plus you'll amaze your friends with your newfound banjo pickin'. Highly recommended! :D

[sequencepro]

IMHO The MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do for your tele playing is buy Bill Knopf's 5 String Melodic Banjo Method book, and work through the licks in A, E, G, D, and C.

It will change your guitar playing FOREVER! I've got shelves full of banjo books by all the greats, but this book is the most logical for Tele playing I've ever seen. His methods apply equally whether you hybrid pick or use the 3 finger "banjo" style.

Also check out Ralph Stanley's banjo playing. He often leads rolls or plays the melody with his index finger.... a very useful thing to be able to do if you want to chicken pick.

Doug Lanier
sequencepro@yahoo.com

[WickedGTR]

can anyone recommend a decent (cheap) starter banjo?

[Mr. Sparkle]

I'd get a Deering Goodtime. Got one for my brother-in-law and it's not a bad starter Banjo at all.

Check the Elderly Instruments site.

[pikopiko]

it's ironic i found this...

i'm currently learning the Hellecasters' "Highlander Boogie"...

so what part is giving me a huge hang up?

the banjo rolls in measures 2 and 4 of the main theme.

:x

just can't seem to get them smooth, even, and most importantly fast.....

[Chris S.]

Originally Posted by pikopiko

so what part is giving me a huge hang up? the banjo rolls ... just can't seem to get them smooth, even, and most importantly fast.....

Well, that was kinda the point of my earlier post: "smooth" and "even" are actually the most important, because they're the only way to get to "fast." AFAIK, anyway. ;-) Best of luck, CS :-)

[pikopiko]

Originally Posted by Chris S.

Well, that was kinda the point of my earlier post: "smooth" and "even" are actually the most important, because they're the only way to get to "fast." AFAIK, anyway. ;-) Best of luck, CS :-)

good point...

replace the words "most importantly" from my first post with the word "ultimately"

[Chris S.]

Hey, speaking of fast banjo rolls on guitar – someone posted this in another thread, but if you want to see a true MASTER at work, check out this video clip of Danny Gatton playing with the Redneck Jazz Explosion:

(Warning: large clip, could be a slow dowload... )

(Additional warning: he's playing a [gasp!] Les Paul... ) ;-)

http://www.dannygatton.com/Video/redneck.mov

Enjoy, CS

[jericho60]

I can do em, sort of, and the meter is fairly even. My problem is actually getting the middle finger note to sound evenly with the others without slurring over it. As a result, I hardly ever try to pull them off live unless I'm feeling really confident that night.

Redd told me to think of the word "tiddlywink" when executing them.

[psychotelepathic]

Originally Posted by Chris S.

Hey, speaking of fast banjo rolls on guitar – someone posted this in another thread, but if you want to see a true MASTER at work, check out this video clip of Danny Gatton playing with the Redneck Jazz Explosion:

(Warning: large clip, could be a slow dowload... )

(Additional warning: he's playing a [gasp!] Les Paul... ) ;-)

http://www.dannygatton.com/Video/redneck.mov

Enjoy, CS

That is just SICK!

[Mickey]

I refer back to this thread all the time, kind of a TDPRI classic.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by ednew

Guess it's true what they say about banjo pickers.

Hey, I resent (er...or maybe resemble) that remark!

[wcap]

Originally Posted by gitarjoe

Please, don't say practice more. I have been.

How long have you been working at this? I was a pretty compulsive, serious banjo player for 20 some years. A lot of this right hand stuff just sort of comes naturally for me now, but boy it didn't at first. I played Foggy Mountain Breakdown and Cripple Creek badly and slowly over and over and over and over again for at least a year before anything really started sounding all that great, and things really didn't start to click for me for at least another year or so of playing all the time and gradually working on new pieces.

It just takes time. Don't get discouraged.

On guitar I have been working on a classical/spanish piece called Recuerdos de la Alhambra (or something along those lines...I forget the exact spelling). It has this constant stream of high notes that make up the melody, (played with the ring, middle, and index fingers in rapid succession), with a slower base line played by the thumb. This (especially the use of the ring finger in this way) was way outside my 3-finger banjo picking comfort zone. I played around with this off and on for a year or two, wondering how in the world I could ever get it to sound at all smooth at anything like the normal speed for this piece. It seemed sort of impossible, and I would repeatedly get frustrated and go off to work on other new pieces instead of this one. Recently it has started to click though, and all of a sudden it is starting to feel comfortable and very natural.

Patience and persistence are what it is all about (and yes, all that stuff about being disciplined and not going too fast too soon is very good advice as well, advice that I find hard to follow myself!).