Why songs in Eb?

Mickey · June 22nd, 2003, 05:16 PM

I've been learning some old standards. Besides the obvious keys for piano ease -- C, G, F -- there's a LOT in Eb for some reason. Is this for reason of voice, or because it's composed for some other instrument? Personally, i don't like the range of fingering options on the fretboard for Eb as much as for others, so I was just wondering.

Mickey

Mark Davis · June 22nd, 2003, 05:31 PM

On guitar its sometimes used so the singer doesnt have to strain so hard.

Some famous guitar players that played everything in Eb are Jimi Hendrix SRV and Buck Owens.

Don Miller · June 22nd, 2003, 08:02 PM

Yeah...some will tune down 1/2 step for various reasons....vocals, a bit more rumble....12 string players will do it to ease the tension on the guitar.....I read somewhere that Buck Owens did it to make his songs a bit more distinctive on an AM car radio...

Chuck Berry played alot in the "horn" keys..Bb and Eb...he tuned standard, just played in those keys

Anonymous · June 22nd, 2003, 08:55 PM

As Don mentioned, most horns are pitched in either Bb or Eb, and that contributes to many songs being written in those keys. Other common horn keys can include F and Ab. (All good for horns but not so much fun for us guitarists...) ;-)

Also, as any piano player will tell you, each key has its own "flavor." The same song played in E will sound and feel very different in Eb. -- CS

Ward · June 22nd, 2003, 11:04 PM

According to pedal steel player lore (well according to the guy I play with), Buck tune down for two reasons. One, because it as easier on his voice, and two because Tom Brumley has a sponser deal with Fender, and Fender steels needed to be tuned down a half stell to prevent steel strings from breaking. Kinda interesting, there's so many versons of why they tuned down that the truth will never truly be known. Ward

Mickey · June 23rd, 2003, 01:19 PM

I guess the songs I was looking at were in horn keys, since they were old standards from Cole Porter and the like. That must be it.

I'm going to try to tune down, see what that does for me on these tunes. I just don't like having to go so high up the neck for lack of options on Eb.

As usual, the scholarship of this forum is the tops, the mashed potatoes, the Louve museum, etc. Thanks all.

Mickey

Jeff S · June 23rd, 2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

As usual, the scholarship of this forum is the tops, the mashed potatoes, the Louve museum, etc.

Keep the questions coming--Heaven knows, anything goes!

jordanl · July 3rd, 2003, 01:21 PM

Horn parts are written transposed. The easy keys to read are C (no sharps and flats), F (1 flat) And G (1 sharp) since their music is transposed up a step(Bb instruments), these are concert keys of Bb, Eb, and F respectively- All popular keys for standards and Jazz. For Eb instruments it would be concert keys Eb, Ab, Bb.

slinkyoz · July 7th, 2003, 10:29 PM

If you're learning "jazz" standards, learn them in the written keys, otherwise you'll find it difficult to play with other people, particularly horn players. Just try calling "rhythm changes" in A, and you'll soon find out...If you use the CAGED system for mapping out the neck, it's no big hassle to play in any key (open string sounds aside). There are options for Eb all over the neck, not just at the 11th fret...could it be that you are looking at the neck only from a Root 6 perspective? If I can help you further, please, just ask, it would be my pleasure.

Honga Man · September 13th, 2003, 01:12 AM

I've always tuned to Eb, I guess because I've always played in rock bands with gravel-voiced singers whose cigarette habits wouldn't let them hit a high note without use of vice-grips.

I say tune to Eb and bring a capo to the gig. :D

CountryShawn · September 13th, 2003, 11:49 PM

I wouldn't read too much into why things are in the keys they are.

99% of the time, they are put in a key that hits the singers tessitura or as close as possible. Then, the instruments can just work around it.

Especially in country, everything revolves around the singers requirements.

CS

sonny_preston · October 3rd, 2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

I guess the songs I was looking at were in horn keys, since they were old standards from Cole Porter and the like. That must be it.

I'm going to try to tune down, see what that does for me on these tunes. I just don't like having to go so high up the neck for lack of options on Eb.

As usual, the scholarship of this forum is the tops, the mashed potatoes, the Louve museum, etc. Thanks all.

Mickey

Hi Mickey,

The E flat position is great for comping behind horns. Better even then E natural.

The e flat position is not as hard as you might think. Grab an open C Chord, fretting the high string with little finger, and slide the whole thing up three frets. Let the open third string "G" ring!

Here is what you end up with:
Sixth string: Mute (or fret at 6th fret with thumb, or alternate bass with ring finger)
Fifth string: Ring finger on 6th fret
Fourth string: Middle finger on 5th fret
Third String: OPEN
Second String: First finger on 3rd fret
First string: Mute (or pinky on 6th fret)

The "F chord" fingerings are right there at the fourth and sixth frets for the IV and V7 chords.

Plus, the cycle of 5th's (often used in horn arrangements) take you through many familiar open and first position chords:
Try this progression:
E flat, G7, C7, F7, B flat 7, E flat.

Apologies if this is too elementary.

Mickey · October 3rd, 2003, 07:33 PM

Nothings too elementary for me, in terms of theory, or anything else. Incidentally I decided not to tune down, to really learn the fretboard, and that's been good to me. But I don't think "out of the box" yet -- my scale patterns are conventional and so are my chords and I've yet to do hybrids of any sort or anything fancy, but some great day this will click.

Thanks for the suupport here, I appreciate every word.

Mickey

June 22nd, 2003, 05:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
Mickey Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 931	Why songs in Eb? I've been learning some old standards. Besides the obvious keys for piano ease -- C, G, F -- there's a LOT in Eb for some reason. Is this for reason of voice, or because it's composed for some other instrument? Personally, i don't like the range of fingering options on the fretboard for Eb as much as for others, so I was just wondering. Mickey

June 22nd, 2003, 08:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
Anonymous Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 0	Horns As Don mentioned, most horns are pitched in either Bb or Eb, and that contributes to many songs being written in those keys. Other common horn keys can include F and Ab. (All good for horns but not so much fun for us guitarists...) ;-) Also, as any piano player will tell you, each key has its own "flavor." The same song played in E will sound and feel very different in Eb. -- CS

June 22nd, 2003, 11:04 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ward Tele-Meister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 453	Hey Don... According to pedal steel player lore (well according to the guy I play with), Buck tune down for two reasons. One, because it as easier on his voice, and two because Tom Brumley has a sponser deal with Fender, and Fender steels needed to be tuned down a half stell to prevent steel strings from breaking. Kinda interesting, there's so many versons of why they tuned down that the truth will never truly be known. Ward

June 23rd, 2003, 01:19 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mickey Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 931	Horn Keys I guess the songs I was looking at were in horn keys, since they were old standards from Cole Porter and the like. That must be it. I'm going to try to tune down, see what that does for me on these tunes. I just don't like having to go so high up the neck for lack of options on Eb. As usual, the scholarship of this forum is the tops, the mashed potatoes, the Louve museum, etc. Thanks all. Mickey

July 3rd, 2003, 01:21 PM	#8 (permalink)
jordanl Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Farmingdale, NY Posts: 554	Horn Keys Horn parts are written transposed. The easy keys to read are C (no sharps and flats), F (1 flat) And G (1 sharp) since their music is transposed up a step(Bb instruments), these are concert keys of Bb, Eb, and F respectively- All popular keys for standards and Jazz. For Eb instruments it would be concert keys Eb, Ab, Bb.

June 22nd, 2003, 05:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mark Davis Doctor of Teleocity Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bakersfield Ca. Age: 58 Posts: 12,876	On guitar its sometimes used so the singer doesnt have to strain so hard. Some famous guitar players that played everything in Eb are Jimi Hendrix SRV and Buck Owens.

June 22nd, 2003, 08:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Don Miller Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Age: 57 Posts: 593 14 Photos	Yeah...some will tune down 1/2 step for various reasons....vocals, a bit more rumble....12 string players will do it to ease the tension on the guitar.....I read somewhere that Buck Owens did it to make his songs a bit more distinctive on an AM car radio... Chuck Berry played alot in the "horn" keys..Bb and Eb...he tuned standard, just played in those keys

July 7th, 2003, 10:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
slinkyoz TDPRI Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: australia Posts: 43	Mickey, Mickey please don't do it.... If you're learning "jazz" standards, learn them in the written keys, otherwise you'll find it difficult to play with other people, particularly horn players. Just try calling "rhythm changes" in A, and you'll soon find out...If you use the CAGED system for mapping out the neck, it's no big hassle to play in any key (open string sounds aside). There are options for Eb all over the neck, not just at the 11th fret...could it be that you are looking at the neck only from a Root 6 perspective? If I can help you further, please, just ask, it would be my pleasure.

September 13th, 2003, 01:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Honga Man Tele-Holic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 579	I've always tuned to Eb, I guess because I've always played in rock bands with gravel-voiced singers whose cigarette habits wouldn't let them hit a high note without use of vice-grips. I say tune to Eb and bring a capo to the gig. :D

September 13th, 2003, 11:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
CountryShawn Tele-Holic Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Age: 37 Posts: 621	Don't read too much into it. I wouldn't read too much into why things are in the keys they are. 99% of the time, they are put in a key that hits the singers tessitura or as close as possible. Then, the instruments can just work around it. Especially in country, everything revolves around the singers requirements. CS

October 3rd, 2003, 07:33 PM	#13 (permalink)
Mickey Tele-Holic Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 931	Not too elementary Nothings too elementary for me, in terms of theory, or anything else. Incidentally I decided not to tune down, to really learn the fretboard, and that's been good to me. But I don't think "out of the box" yet -- my scale patterns are conventional and so are my chords and I've yet to do hybrids of any sort or anything fancy, but some great day this will click. Thanks for the suupport here, I appreciate every word. Mickey