What scale is appropriate for this?

[binkydognose]

Just want to say this is fascinating. Seems like it should be so simple but it's not. I fit some E blues into it and some A major, and have to learn up on Mixolydian, really curious now because this gives me a context to use it in. See, I'm not anti-theory... :-)

[jbmando]

I see no reason to avoid a D note over the E. In your posted video, the riff JG plays over the E contains a D. But don't play scales or modes. Play music. To analyze it, E mixo fits, but "jammin' in E" does too. I doubt they thought about it that much. I'd be more inclined to avoid the C over the D. Try D major pent over the D and E minor and major pent over the E and mix it up. I myself would not play any kind of A major in this one.

[P Thought]

Originally Posted by jbmando

I myself would not play any kind of A major in this one.

Dangit. Back to the fret board.

[jbmando]

Hey, P, do it if you like it, I'm just speaking (typing???) for myself.

[greggorypeccary]

Originally Posted by Seasicksailor

Valid points, but I don't want to immitate JG... perhaps elements of his style, yes.

Well, it's not like Jerry invented "playing the changes", it's a good thing for anyone to work towards.

Originally Posted by binkydognose

Just want to say this is fascinating. Seems like it should be so simple but it's not. I fit some E blues into it and some A major, and have to learn up on Mixolydian, really curious now because this gives me a context to use it in. See, I'm not anti-theory... :-)

If you're playing A major, you are already playing the notes of E mixo so it shouldn't be that tough for you!

[Seasicksailor]

Originally Posted by jbmando

I see no reason to avoid a D note over the E. In your posted video, the riff JG plays over the E contains a D. But don't play scales or modes. Play music. To analyze it, E mixo fits, but "jammin' in E" does too. I doubt they thought about it that much. I'd be more inclined to avoid the C over the D. Try D major pent over the D and E minor and major pent over the E and mix it up. I myself would not play any kind of A major in this one.

You're right about not avoiding the D over the E... I got my 7ths wrong in the initial post. I meant the C over the D. Sorry for the confusion. On the other hand, as Larry suggested, the C over the E can sound interesting at times.

Binkydognose, you do not need to learn the E mixolydian... as far as I understand it, it is E with a flat 7, therefore the A major scale starting from E.

Yep, it's things like that I spout out sometimes to impress my friends... of course, half of you will probably say I'm horribly wrong... then, I'll ignore you and continue impressing my friends! :-P

[P Thought]

That's good to hear. I don't have the modes straight in my mind yet--it's coming up soon on my list of projects--though as I climb around in my scale patterns I've begun to see strong relationships between some pairs of keys: E/A, G/C, etc. I based my first conclusion on D and E being the IV and V chords for A major, and my CAGED scale positions for A worked out. Playing along with the Dead (imagine that!) I might've stumbled in to the E mixolydian mode: that wouldn't surprise me. Kind of makes a feller proud.

Hmm.

I think that one problem is that I thought all the modes that come out of an A pattern were A modes; i.e. that the scale starting on the E would be called "A mixolydian." Sometimes the light's all shinin' on me. . .other times. . . .

[Seasicksailor]

Originally Posted by guitar dan

For other ideas, check out Danny Gatton and Arlen Roth on "tequila".... Same chord changes on the main part of the tune. (E to D)


One more thing... The next time your playing over an E7 chord... You can play D triads to invoke that mixolydian sound.

I guess you mean this one?



1. Great playing!!!
2. I wonder if the fact that E and D change more quickly here would affect your choice of scale. It seems to me that D is not as prevalent as in Cold Rain and Snow.

[Seasicksailor]

Originally Posted by P Thought

That's good to hear. I don't have the modes straight in my mind yet--it's coming up soon on my list of projects--though as I climb around in my scale patterns I've begun to see strong relationships between some pairs of keys: E/A, G/C, etc. I based my first conclusion on D and E being the IV and V chords for A major, and my CAGED scale positions for A worked out. Playing along with the Dead (imagine that!) I might've stumbled in to the E mixolydian mode: that wouldn't surprise me. Kind of makes a feller proud.

I have made a poster of the circle of fifths and stare at it for a while every day:

http://www.folkblues.com/theory/circle_5ths.htm

First, it tells you how many flats and sharps each key has. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of other relationships are revealed every once in a while. For example, the mixolydian of each key is next to it - A next to E, F next to C. For C mixolydian, one needs to play in F but starting from C. In order to find the lydian, you take the other direction (E lydian is B starting from the E note).

... and I already have a headache!! :-P I'm not there yet myself.

But yeah, jamming along to the GD should be a source of pride! :-)

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by Seasicksailor

Binkydognose, you do not need to learn the E mixolydian... as far as I understand it, it is E with a flat 7, therefore the A major scale starting from E.

Yep, it's things like that I spout out sometimes to impress my friends... of course, half of you will probably say I'm horribly wrong... then, I'll ignore you and continue impressing my friends! :-P

You're dead on it. That's exactly what it is.

[McGlamRock]

Originally Posted by klasaine

You're dead on it.

[jazztele]

you can visualize the modes via their parent major scale, but you need to know and draw attention to their characteristic pitches if you're ever gonna use them correctly.

[Erik8]

Jazztele (or anybody else) do you mind posting the characteristic pitches of the modes? I know like the dorian its the 2 and 6.

I did a search and found this page that also look at the modes of the melodic minor ect...

http://adamneely.com/2010/02/14/andi...istic-pitches/

[jazztele]

Ionian...maj7

Dorian: 6

Phrygian: b2

Lydian: #4

Mixolydian: b7

Aeolian: b6

Locrian: b2, b5

[binkydognose]

Originally Posted by greggorypeccary

If you're playing A major, you are already playing the notes of E mixo so it shouldn't be that tough for you!

I was just about to post the same, when I looked it up I was "Ah Ha!". And it does have that Grateful Dead feel for sure.
I just like saying "Mixolydian" now, my word of the moment to use completely out of context.

[Muttcaster]

Given Jerry's association with bluegrass, you might want to also check out these versions of the tune:



I first heard of the tune thru Peter Rowan, myself. In a bluegrass situation, I'd absolutely be playing out of the chord changes. I'd be looking for the bluesy notes and trying to mimic the vocalist.

Song's in E and is going I-VII. The "flat 7" is common stuff to us bluegrass/old-time/mountain guys.

[Erik8]

Thank you Jeff!

How about the modes of harmonic minor, melodic minor and harmonic major, are they not as usefull as the modes of the major scale? you don't often hear about those.

[P Thought]

Originally Posted by binkydognose

I just like saying "Mixolydian" now, my word of the moment to use completely out of context.

Nice. Seems thesauric with "outtasight".

It's still 0-dark-30, but the modes are beginning to dawn for me. Maybe. Thanks for the post about the flavors, jazztele, that will help me. So let me try this: each scale (A major this time) has its seven modes, and each modal scale (like E mixolydian) is named for its tonic note, the note it starts from. Aha?

[edit, after an hour on the porch] so, is "playing over the chords" a matter of changing modes within the ruling key? I think I might be able to learn to do that, and I'd very much like to.

[Seasicksailor]

Muttcaster, I really LOVED the first video with the slow version. Thanks!!

Damn it Erik8, I knew harmonic minor, melodic minor, but 'harmonic major'? Damn! Now I have to look that up! They never end!! :-P

[Seasicksailor]

Originally Posted by Seasicksailor

Muttcaster, I really LOVED the first video with the slow version. Thanks!!

Damn it Erik8, I knew harmonic minor, melodic minor, but 'harmonic major'? Damn! Now I have to look that up! They never end!! :-P

So, after checking out wikipedia, it's a 'normal' major scale with a flat 6th. So, you play in C major and you play Ab... wow... I cannot think of any examples of that.

On the other hand, playing in A major and using an F (as opposed to F#) feels a bit familiar. I am not sure why.