"Beebop" Scales

[Leon Grizzard]

Okay. So we see these "beebop" scales, which add an extra note so you have both major and minor sevenths. This, as I understand it, helps keep chord tones on the beat when you add the M7 to a scale which has a b7, (or at least evenly spaced), and it is a nice chromatic touch.

True or false? Or, what's up with all that?

[klasaine]

Yes to all that but there's probably five dif bebop scales that guys use.

1 -bebop dominant scale is derived from the Mixolydian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the b7th and the root. Use for dominant and extended dom chords (9th, 13th the occasional lightly altered 7th chord).

2 -bebop major scale is derived from the Ionian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th tones. Major 6th and maj.7th chords.

3 -bebop melodic minor scale is derived from the ascending form of the melodic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th. Minor 6th chords (or dom.9th a fourth up; Gm6 = C9).

4 -bebop harmonic minor scale is derived from the harmonic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone (an additional b7) between the 6th and the nat 7th. Treated respectfully it can be used over all three chords of a minor ii V i (*watch b3 and the natural 7 over the ii chord - which type of ii you use and how you approach it over a minor ii V is worthy of it's own treatise).

5 -bebop Dorian scale is derived from the Dorian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the minor 3rd and the 4th. This is really just a 'mode' of the bebop mixo scale. It does have a cool M3/m3 sound that can be useful.

*I don't consciously use 'bebop' scales when I play. That's not a critique at all, just a personal choice - I play jazz very chromatically and more often than not probably play elements of these scales. I just don't think that way. I may at some point(?). I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.

[Tonemonkey]

Re: ^^^^^

My name is Tonemonkey and I'm a moderately gifted performer ..... yet clearly a musical Idiot.

[klasaine]

The Bebop scales as well as the modes of Melodic Minor scale are much more revealing (and for me more interesting) when you start harmonizing them.

For example adding the b6 to a maj7th chord .
Cmaj7b6: X36453 Use this voicing for the first two changes of 'Dindi' - Cmaj7b6 to Bbmaj7b6. Works great with the melody and sounds super hip in a creepy sort of way.
*(You 'can' think of this as G13b9/C - or play it with a low G: 3X6453). Sounds great as the pk up chord to 'Misty' ... "look at me" Cmaj7. See it that way can also open up some nice new melodic ideas as well.

**I mentioned in my first post here to watch how you treat the nat.7 of the bebop harm min scale over the ii chord in a minor ii V i (the scale is based off the i). Again for an interesting chordal treatment try adding the natural 7th.
Ex: Em7b5 - X7888X to A13b9 - X 10 11 11 11 X to Dmin/maj7 - X 8 11 10 10 x

[tedro]

Originally Posted by klasaine

I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.

love to read more about that, if you would.

[klasaine]

This is what turned my head around ... http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Secrets.../dp/0769215564
The title is kinda stupid. It's not a 'secret' or a secret, easy way to playing better. It's just VERY concise. He focuses on one thing and one thing only - how to use melodic minor over dom7th chords in jazz (and fusion).

I started simple: mm 1/2 step up over dom chords in a ii V (or ii V I).
Ex: ii V I in C ... Dm7 - G7 - C
D minor arp/line - Ab mm - C major arp/line. *If it's a really burning tempo you can just play Ab mm lines as long as you resolve nicely to C or wherever it's going.

Over a static dominant chord. Ex: D9 (funk) think A mm and to a lesser extent C mm.

[tedro]

something a great local (jazz) guitarist said to me once as advice when i asked him to teach me: "the difference between you and me is: where you see scales (or notes on the fingerboard), i see chords."
then i heard, long ago, that guys like Metheny and friends/students would practice soloing on standards (of course) using chord tones only.

sorry to be off-topic!

[tedro]

Originally Posted by klasaine

This is what turned my head around ... http://www.amazon.com/Guitar-Secrets.../dp/0769215564

I started simple: mm 1/2 step up over dom chords in a ii V (or ii V I).
Ex: ii V I in C ... Dm7 - G7 - C
D minor arp/line - Ab mm - C major arp/line. *If it's a really burning tempo you can just play Ab mm lines as long as you resolve nicely to C or wherever it's going.

Over a static dominant chord. Ex: D9 (funk) think A mm and to a lesser extent C mm.

awesome, thanks for sharing!

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by tedro

something a great local (jazz) guitarist said to me once as advice when i asked him to teach me: "the difference between you and me is: where you see scales (or notes on the fingerboard), i see chords."
then i heard, long ago, that guys like Metheny and friends/students would practice soloing on standards (of course) using chord tones only.

sorry to be off-topic!

Lest I forget my standard caveat and disclaimer ...
I will always and unfailing recommend that before anyone messes with mel.min/modes/bebop scales/etc. that you know what and where the chord tones are - jazz, rock, klezmer, whatever.

[I own a Tele]

Originally Posted by klasaine

The Bebop scales as well as the modes of Melodic Minor scale are much more revealing (and for me more interesting) when you start harmonizing them.

For example adding the b6 to a maj7th chord .
Cmaj7b6: X36453 Use this voicing for the first two changes of 'Dindi' - Cmaj7b6 to Bbmaj7b6. Works great with the melody and sounds super hip in a creepy sort of way.
*(You 'can' think of this as G13b9/C - or play it with a low G: 3X6453). Sounds great as the pk up chord to 'Misty' ... "look at me" Cmaj7. See it that way can also open up some nice new melodic ideas as well.

**I mentioned in my first post here to watch how you treat the nat.7 of the bebop harm min scale over the ii chord in a minor ii V i (the scale is based off the i). Again for an interesting chordal treatment try adding the natural 7th.
Ex: Em7b5 - X7888X to A13b9 - X 10 11 11 11 X to Dmin/maj7 - X 8 11 10 10 x

jesus christ...this all looks like some crazy abstract mathematical equations too me with chemistry thrown in...i might have a better chance at rocket science than understand this lol

[gtroates]

A great resource of info on adding half steps to scales is Barry Harris, he has a website with teaching links. He is very thorough in his method and brings up many situations based on what scale tone you start your line on and where you start the line rhythmically ( triplets, on the beat, on the upbeat, etc.). Barry's DVD series of his seminars are valuable master classes in bebop playing approaches. I think the earliest user/originator of the term "bebop scales" is David Baker, he also has a three volume series of "How to Play Bebop" texts which is based on his transcription research of hundreds of solos by Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Charlie Parker. I find these two educators to be definitive sources for learning these scale types.

[Space Pickle]

Originally Posted by I own a Tele

jesus christ...this all looks like some crazy abstract mathematical equations too me with chemistry thrown in...i might have a better chance at rocket science than understand this lol

Well, at least you own a tele.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by gtroates

A great resource of info on adding half steps to scales is Barry Harris, he has a website with teaching links. He is very thorough in his method and brings up many situations based on what scale tone you start your line on and where you start the line rhythmically ( triplets, on the beat, on the upbeat, etc.). Barry's DVD series of his seminars are valuable master classes in bebop playing approaches. I think the earliest user/originator of the term "bebop scales" is David Baker, he also has a three volume series of "How to Play Bebop" texts which is based on his transcription research of hundreds of solos by Clifford Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, and Charlie Parker. I find these two educators to be definitive sources for learning these scale types.

+1 for both Harris and Baker.

Among others David Baker played trombone on the seminal George Russell record 'Ezz-thetics' and Barry Harris played on the Lee Morgan tour de force, 'the Sidewinder' (among others). These two guys know their $h1t whether it be playing or teaching. I admire them both greatly because they refuse to adhere to the tradition that improvisation and jazz is somehow mystical and unknowable with the conscious mind. Dave Liebman is another one who's not afraid of education.

And to quote jbmando's signature ... "Theory only seems like rocket science when you don't know it. Once you understand it, it's more like plumbing!"~John McGann (1959-2012)

[tedro]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Lest I forget my standard caveat and disclaimer ...
I will always and unfailing recommend that before anyone messes with mel.min/modes/bebop scales/etc. that you know what and where the chord tones are - jazz, rock, klezmer, whatever.

actually, i believe you did include the benefits of harmonization right from the top.

edit: ok, second post, at the top.

[klasaine]

Sort of.
I mean you need to know what and where the tones of each chord you're playing over are.
Dm7 = D F A C
G7 = G B D F
Cmaj7 = C E G B

This before you worry about anything else!
*When you know your chord tones then the scales make WAY more sense and are much easier to apply musically.

[Erik8]

I`m no expert but I believe Charlie Parker did not think in terms of scales? That did not start until George Russell`s book "lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization" was published in 1953. Starting the modal jazz style. Parker was thinking of chord tones and passing tones etc.

[klasaine]

Parker was way into melodic and harmonic minor - he runs them all the time in his solos. Yes of course he also equally thought in chord tones.

Check out the way he plays over the bridge changes in 'Yardbird Suite'. Melodic minor straight up starting at the 5th ... with chrom. passing tone. I can cite dozens of other examples ... bar 5 of the bridge of 'scrapple/apple' - G mixo, D to D ... bars 1 and 2 of the melody of 'Donna Lee' - Ab maj scale desc from the root with a b5 passing tone ... etc, etc, etc.

It's his as well as Dizzy's (not too mention Charlie Christian) use of the passing tones usually between either 6 and 7 or b7 and 1 that was 'codified' later (by David Baker, coincidentally the trombone player in George Russell's band). Baker coined the term 'bebop' scales (see mine and gtroates earlier posts). Russell's book is not a book of scales per se but a book/technique about how to use and think about a particular scale - the lydian mode.

*Parker practiced scales (sometimes 13 hours a day according to his contemporaries) and he played them in his solos. He was always very musical about it but so should any musician be.

[slowpinky]

Originally Posted by Erik8

I`m no expert but I believe Charlie Parker did not think in terms of scales? That did not start until George Russell`s book "lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization" was published in 1953. Starting the modal jazz style. Parker was thinking of chord tones and passing tones etc.

Yep - the bebop guys were for the most part, chord oriented although Russell always maintains that his theory was contrived from the music of Parker - and others. I dont know if Russell really started the "modal style" as we know it - I always imagine Miles modal stuff as a reaction against it actually.
Russels' theory puts the chord first too - except that he is definitely pushing for musicians to appreciate the value of the 'other consonants in the chord - the 9th the 13th etc - probably because he could hear how adept Bird was at targeting those tones in his own playing. Jamey Aebersold -who studied with George - simplified the chord /scale idea to a greater degree - firstly as I understand it, to help Classical musicians(who knew all their scales but didnt know much about how to improvise on harmony) and this resulted in a real increase of noticeably scalar playing in 'schooled' players. But I've never come across a teacher or mentor who was any good, who didnt make the chord - or the progression, the primary concern in playing changes.

[tedro]

[how] to play "outside"; outside what? (rhetorical)

[sirbergersworth]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Yes to all that but there's probably five dif bebop scales that guys use.

1 -bebop dominant scale is derived from the Mixolydian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the b7th and the root. Use for dominant and extended dom chords (9th, 13th the occasional lightly altered 7th chord).

2 -bebop major scale is derived from the Ionian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th tones. Major 6th and maj.7th chords.

3 -bebop melodic minor scale is derived from the ascending form of the melodic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone between the 5th and 6th. Minor 6th chords (or dom.9th a fourth up; Gm6 = C9).

4 -bebop harmonic minor scale is derived from the harmonic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone (an additional b7) between the 6th and the nat 7th. Treated respectfully it can be used over all three chords of a minor ii V i (*watch b3 and the natural 7 over the ii chord - which type of ii you use and how you approach it over a minor ii V is worthy of it's own treatise).

5 -bebop Dorian scale is derived from the Dorian mode and has a chromatic passing tone between the minor 3rd and the 4th. This is really just a 'mode' of the bebop mixo scale. It does have a cool M3/m3 sound that can be useful.

*I don't consciously use 'bebop' scales when I play. That's not a critique at all, just a personal choice - I play jazz very chromatically and more often than not probably play elements of these scales. I just don't think that way. I may at some point(?). I wasn't a melodic minor guy for a long time and now I'm a disciple. So many ways to skin a jazz cat.

Great explanation.
I understand the theory of it all. Putting it to use and having it appear in my playing is the hard part.

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