I have an idea

[P Thought]

I've been working, learning. Using my scale patterns to find my way up and down the neck, and starting to be able to "sing" melodies within them, and shift between them fairly readily. I've also been building a song list, collecting lyrics to songs I like (and writing a few of my own), then working out chords, and working in melody lines.

jbmando and others have many times stressed the importance of octave shapes within the scale patterns. It's also been impressed upon me that I need to learn the notes everywhere on the fretboard, and I've not done very well with that, especially on the inside strings.

I had an idea, one that I think might help me bring together the things I've learned so far, and help me cross some of the boundaries that now hold me back. Browsing a local music store, I came across a songbook--I haven't bought a songbook in years, and when I did I always used them strictly for lyrics and chord diagrams--called "The Grand Ole Opry Songbook". It contains dozens of songs of the kind I like on my song list, including several that are already there.

My idea was to use the notes, at first on the melody lines, then later the chord notes as well, to help me resurrect my long-lost ability to read music. I've started working that way on Hank Cochran's "Make the World Go Away", written here in C, and I can see already that this will help me attach note names to fretted strings, as well as recognizing notes on the page. I have also already caught glimpses of the other octave patterns, octaves for the other notes in the scale, that reside in the scale patterns as well, and I believe I might soon see better how the modes work, and how to use them myself. Using this, I think I will also catch on soon to scale notes, key signatures, and chord triads.

Dumb question (I have no piano): is that "middle" C at the 5th string third fret, or one higher or lower? Is my guitar's low E the one just below the dots on the bass clef, or the one an octave down?

[upinthemteles]

Originally Posted by P Thought

I've been working, learning. Using my scale patterns to find my way up and down the neck, and starting to be able to "sing" melodies within them, and shift between them fairly readily. I've also been building a song list, collecting lyrics to songs I like (and writing a few of my own), then working out chords, and working in melody lines.

jbmando and others have many times stressed the importance of octave shapes within the scale patterns. It's also been impressed upon me that I need to learn the notes everywhere on the fretboard, and I've not done very well with that, especially on the inside strings.

I had an idea, one that I think might help me bring together the things I've learned so far, and help me cross some of the boundaries that now hold me back. Browsing a local music store, I came across a songbook--I haven't bought a songbook in years, and when I did I always used them strictly for lyrics and chord diagrams--called "The Grand Ole Opry Songbook". It contains dozens of songs of the kind I like on my song list, including several that are already there.

My idea was to use the notes, at first on the melody lines, then later the chord notes as well, to help me resurrect my long-lost ability to read music. I've started working that way on Hank Cochran's "Make the World Go Away", written here in C, and I can see already that this will help me attach note names to fretted strings, as well as recognizing notes on the page. I have also already caught glimpses of the other octave patterns, octaves for the other notes in the scale, that reside in the scale patterns as well, and I believe I might soon see better how the modes work, and how to use them myself. Using this, I think I will also catch on soon to scale notes, key signatures, and chord triads.

Dumb question (I have no piano): is that "middle" C at the 5th string third fret, or one higher or lower? Is my guitar's low E the one just below the dots on the bass clef, or the one an octave down?

Does the songbook you have show the chord shapes, and have the music written for piano (bass clef and treble clef)?

I think you're right on your middle C, though I wouldn't be afraid to use whichever C works best for the song, especially if you're using music for piano, which would probably need some changes considering the limitations of the guitar.

I'm not sure what others meant by octave patterns, but to me it means knowing that if you have an A on the fifth fret of your low E string, you've also got an A on the 7th fret of your D string, and an A on the fifth fret of your high E string. Using shortcuts like these, you can figure out the chord tones in between. I know this was a big thing for me. It's just being able to take a note, and knowing where all the octaves of that note are on the guitar. Much easier to do than explain I think. Have you ever tried to build chords? Or dissect chords to see why they are what they are? These will help you learn all the notes on the freboard and the patterns necessary to do so.

[jbmando]

Middle C (C4) on a guitar is second string, first fret - 261.626 Hz. Guitar music on the treble clef sounds an octave lower than it is written. Here is some good info on guitar notes.

[klasaine]

Guitarists 'read' a middle C at the 3rd fret, 5th string but technically guitar is a transposing instrument and we play an octave below whats really written. Middle "C" on a piano will sound at the guitars 1st fret, second string.

[klasaine]

See, this time you beat me to it JB.

[P Thought]

Originally Posted by jbmando

Middle C (C4) on a guitar is second string, first fret - 261.626 Hz. Guitar music on the treble clef sounds an octave lower than it is written. Here is some good info on guitar notes.

Aha. Thanks. I see it. I was playing the C in "make the world" at the 3rd string 5th fret, same note, and on the score it's written as the C above middle C, as in klasaine's diagram. Interesting, and good to know.

So that means my C at 5th string 3rd is middle C on the score, and my low E would be written on the line below the dots (pardon the technical talk) on the bass clef, though it actually sounds an octave lower. My guitar's total range is about 3 1/2 octaves??? And I read, following the link, that it's singing in the tenor range, though we're reading treble clef. Very interesting.

I don't know if all songs will be like this, but there's a big ol' fat major chord right below each of the guitar-chord diagrams, and I'll bet, as I get more used to reading the notes, I'll start to recognize the triads more easily, and then start to find them more easily in the various positions (scale patterns) up and down the neck.

My friend Harry, who died recently, cautioned me against playing chords with too many thirds in them. He said they sound muddy. Is that right?

[jbmando]

Yeah, you only need one third to "color" a chord. My biggest peeve about the mandolin is the D chop they teach for bluegrass. D F# D F#, low to high. Sounds weak. I refuse to play it. But multiple 3rds don't necessarily sound muddy all the time - cowboy C - xCEGCE - sounds pretty nice.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by P Thought

My friend Harry, who died recently, cautioned me against playing chords with too many thirds in them. He said they sound muddy. Is that right?

Yes. I think that's a general rule of thumb that comes out of arranging and composing guidlines. I think we used the Walter Piston book in college. (Sorry, just having a flashback)

I think the 'thirds' rule probably comes out of classical music and has been applied as a rule of thumb in general for composers and arrangers of various genres. There's also a 'rule' about not having parrallel 5th motion but rock music for example (which has recently become quite popular I understand) uses it all the time. So these are rules of thumb. They are useful guidelines and you can still be musical and not strictly adhere to them by rote.

[Larry F]

I don't look at these things as rules, but as features of style. It is true that thirds are often not doubled in classical music, as well as pop and jazz arrangements for band and orchestras. The muddiness comes from the interference of the harmonics of the root, third, and fifths of a chord. Another reason for not doubling the third is that when it is in the V chord, it is the leading tone of the key. Traditionally, leading tones resolve up to the tonic note on the I chord. This would require that two voices to move in parallel octaves, which sound out of character in classical music styles. Not right or wrong, just out of character for a given style.

Looked at from another way, if you adopt the voice-leading practices of classical music, your music will start to sound classical, which may be interpreted as schooled, academic, pedantic, etc.

Music theory teachers of freshmen usually try to be clear on the style issue. Voice-leading exercises can have errors in them only from the standpoint of stylistic inconsistency. It is not unheard of for students to infer that some practices are right or wrong. Yet, how many times does the teacher have to remind them of this?

[P Thought]

Originally Posted by jbmando

cowboy C - xCEGCE - sounds pretty nice.

Harry used the cowboy C as an example: if you play the 6th string open it's still a C chord, ECEGCE, but sounds muddy. Too many thirds. I think he thought two were OK.

P.S. I miss Harry terribly. I have to find someone to play with, and live with the fact that no one can replace Harry.

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by Larry F

I don't look at these things as rules, but as features of style.

Thanks. That's a much more appropriate way to regard this stuff.