10,000 hours...

[boneyguy]

Originally Posted by P Thought

That's what I meaned.

Ya know I wondered about that after I wrote my response. Sorry.

[raito]

Originally Posted by ryokan

Sounds AWFUL when it is presented this way. There has to be joy and fun or what is the point? I can't imagine making art out of this process. I know that I work on my weaknesses, and spend hours and hours in rooting them out, thinking them out. But I do it because I ENJOY it, it is highly satisfying and a life's work.

There's a big difference between enjoyment and satisfaction. Training is seldom enjoyable -- there's just no time for it. But it is satisfying. The satisfaction of practice comes at the end (and really, most people can't handle that delay). The enjoyment comes from having the skill itself.

getbent, I'll still say that gigs don't count for practice time. That is absolutely NOT to say that they aren't useful and essential, just that they are not training. Even in your own words, you're assessing your performance, and that's a requirement. You're figuring out your strengths and weaknesses. But the gig isn't where you're going to find improvement. (I'm not disagreeing with what you say you're doing during a gig, because that's what you should be doing, but that it's practice)

You can acquire all the skill in the world through practice, but if you never use it, is it worth while to have? (that's why gigs, in any form, from arenas to backyard parties, are important. You have to use the skills sometime.)

You have a set list, right? How many songs are on it? Let's say 50 or so, so you don't have to play 3 sets the same all the time. How many keys are those songs in? How much of your knowledge is in those songs? All of it? Probably not. Sure, if you put in 10K hours on the songs in that list you'd be an expert at those songs (maybe). But you wouldn't be an expert at your instrument.

One of the things I'm quite good at is a particular sort of martial arts. But when I go to a tournament, it is not practice. I am not there to improve, I'm there to win. And if I can most easily win by executing the same technique on every opponent, I will do that (and I have). But it won't make me any better at the end than I am at the beginning. Sure, I'm going to go over my performance with a fine-toothed comb, and use it to inform my practice, but it is not practice. If it were, you'd think that the guys I come up against who do little actual practice would be kicking my fat old man butt all over the place, because they do a lot more tournaments than I do. But they don't because they only perform, they do not practice.

And here's a final bit of wisdom that I ripped off from somewhere else, forced into musical form. Everyone says,"Gee, I wish I could play like that guy." No one ever says,"Gee, I wish I worked as hard at it as he did."

[String Tree]

That works out to 3.4246575342465753424657534246575-ish years of Eight-hour days, Seven days a week.

One would hope that at least some progress had been made in that time.

[klasaine]

On the performance v. practice end of it ...

I say you learn different things on a gig.

1) how to set up quickly and efficiently.
2) how much gear you 'realistically' need to bring.
3) how to set that RAT pedal so it DOESN'T get lost in the mix.
4) how much verb and delay is too much or too little verb and delay.
5) what your background vocals 'really' sound like in the heat of the moment.
6) best place to put your slide/capo/ebow where you can get it quickly.
7) that a 1-spot power supply is as noisy as a Hwy 5 truck stop with any more than 3 pedals when you're standing under the moving, neon Hamms sign ... or when the blender turns on.
8) that really beautiful acoustic solo you take on 'change the world' turns into an ocean liner's fog horn of feedback.
9) all the little mistakes or 'space out' moments that in rehearsal just get cursorily glossed over - now they become big F'ups that you realize must be addressed.
*That's the one I really learn on the first gig with a new project/band. What is it I really don't know? - ahh, that part!

You may not be a better player after those type of gig scenarios but you'll (hopefully) go home armed with a list of what needs fixing/adjusting.

For some guys it takes 20 gigs to figure all that out. Others get it in one or two.

[BillNeaves]

The learning curve rate or slope is probably somewhat different or dynamic for each individual... HOW one spends the time practicing must also enter into the equation I.e. how focused, sharp, tired, interrupted, etc... The old task versus time paradigm. My guess is that the "threshold" of 10k hours, in general, is the period of time that seems to mitigate all of these dynamic factors. For me, 20 minutes of practice when I'm feeling "sharp" is far more productive (in terms of provement)than an hour of playing after a challenging work day.

[BillNeaves]

If gigs aren't practice, why do bands get tighter and less nervous, and more comfortable on stage the more gigs they play out in front of people? I think gigs, in many ways, are practice opportunities to improve on a variety of levels. Even bands with good and experienced players sound "green" and don't "gel" as a band until they get some good gigs under their belt. IMO.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by P Thought

That's what I meaned.

when I see these kinds of puns, I know I'm skewed.

[klasaine]

Originally Posted by BillNeaves

If gigs aren't practice, why do bands get tighter and less nervous, and more comfortable on stage the more gigs they play out in front of people? I think gigs, in many ways, are practice opportunities to improve on a variety of levels. Even bands with good and experienced players sound "green" and don't "gel" as a band until they get some good gigs under their belt. IMO.

I 'think' what was meant by the 'gigs aren't practice' statement was speaking more from a musical/technical POV. On most gigs you're not gonna learn a new scale or harmonic concept (if you do a lot of jazz gigs with better players you will). You will of course (or hopefully) get tighter as a band after a bunch of gigs.

I learn a lot on gigs (see my post #64 in this thread) but I don't necessarily get personally better as a guitar player. Maybe better as a band member(?).

[raito]

klasaine put it pretty well.

Or in other words, are you practicing what you think you're practicing?

And could that band gel if they just practiced together, as opposed to gigging?

[Larry F]

Speaking for myself, I always looked at gigs as feedback for what I need to practice. For example, if I trouble with the Chuck Berry pattern of 5 6 7 6 over the root of a chord, then I will work on making that kind of stretch in my practicing. At the next gig, I will see how I do with this. If I do fine, then I will eventually drop it from my practice routine, or maybe do a little maintenance work just to be sure. This is not a very good example, as I am in the unusual position of trying to come back to playing after a 25 year layoff, and things have tightened up in my hands and arms. But this is the general idea of how gigging and practice are related for me.

[klasaine]

Very concise Larry!
Gigs are like biofeedback.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Very concise Larry!
Gigs are like biofeedback.

only when they throw vegetables!

[klasaine]

Don't they always?

[getbent]

Originally Posted by klasaine

Don't they always?

not during RICO... suuuuaaaaaavvvvveeeeee



the girls shake they booty during that one!

[BillNeaves]

I practice at gigs... self reflective stuff (am I tensing up? playing too hard? tending to speed or rush on solos? etc... the actual execution of things in the moment)... you know, like when we were kids and on the bball court... pretending the time on the clock was almost out and I had the last shot at the foul line... choke time? practicing being "under pressure".... like someone said earlier, things become more clear in the gig that weren't so clear in the practice...

[getbent]

How i see performance as practice is.... for most bands, when they rehearse the 'run down' songs... at the gig... you really find out what you know and don't know.

we did some really really long and good paying gigs a couple of summers ago and to rehearse for them (and slightly as a goof) I suggested we play every song we know (back then like 170 songs or so) super fast, as fast as we could possibly play them without falling apart...

it was strange... I think I really 'learned them' that day... I will never forget (until the all timers come to get me) them after that...

at the gigs, instead of having people 'speed up' when they got at the edge of their knowledge... everyone relaxed and just played...

maybe that isn't evidence, but I know when I'm not gigging, I don't learn new things as fast (songs or 'tricks') and when I'm gigging steady everything just seems to come.

[slowpinky]

It depends on how many gigs you do -10 years ago when I was working 3-4 nights a week I didnt worry about it so much - I was "gig ready" and pretty hip to where I was on the playing scale - and what was going on. I'm playing less now than I ever have - but when I do play its usually a concert - and pressure, so Im more inclined to record and review..because you cant listen to ,and review your playing while you're playing to the same degree .The gigs arent exactly practice, but "gig form" is a real condition for those who work regularly.

[chaseroonie]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Malcom Gladwell is a self-absorbed twit who doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he does.

JM

I would always AT LEAST google the mans qualifications, credentials ect ect.among others things. Brad Paisley highly praises the 10,000 hour rule, in his somewhat recent book. I often talk about the 10,000 hour rule and know one thing is for certain. If your a musician with the right components, and sweat every last ounce of what you got in every minute that completes that hour and do that 10,000 times, you will be a master. Im chasing 10,000 hard. I am at 7635 RIGHT NOW. I discounted 'noodling and even live shows', I only count precise time prac. physically, mentally, theory and creatively. When i hit 10000 I am going to just have turned 28 and will continue in full throttle to the highest road I can take take.

[emu!]

Practice makes perfect...HA!!!

What's the goal of playing music..the ego trip of being "perfect"? If I want to play Johnny B. Goode with cowboy cords...you damn well know I will. ;)

Why in the world would someone want to do an artistic endeavor like a robot? Music was meant to portray emotion, not perfection. There's been dozens of bands that were worshipped by millions and made millions just by slamming some power chords.

Perfectionists are people with a self-made problem...and they tend to band together. (pun intended) JMO.

[getbent]

Originally Posted by emu!

Practice makes perfect...HA!!!

What's the goal of playing music..the ego trip of being "perfect"? If I want to play Johnny B. Goode with cowboy cords...you damn well know I will. ;)

Why in the world would someone want to do an artistic endeavor like a robot? Music was meant to portray emotion, not perfection. There's been dozens of bands that were worshipped by millions and made millions just by slamming some power chords.

Perfectionists are people with a self-made problem...and they tend to band together. (pun intended) JMO.

you've convinced me! I will quit practicing and become much more emotional.